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Versiune completa:O Lectie De La Bosimani
HanuAncutei.com - ARTA de a conversa > Odaia Dezbaterilor: Stiinta si Cultura > Odaia Filosofilor
Pagini: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
jet li
Pai probabil ca mai sunt. Unde am zis eu ca nu mai sunt. La cum se poarta oamenii moderni cu ei asta e. Si de ce s-ar purta altfel, ei insisi sunt defectati de era moderna. Pentru ca societatea moderna sa functioneze de astia avem nevoie. Semi oameni, masini, suruburi, executanti, visatori la bani, etc.

Am gasit ceva si acum. Exact ce ziceam :
QUOTE
Majoritatea spitalelor din judet refuza sa interneze copii handicapati de la Ionaseni, lasindu-i sa moara incet pe paturile lor din camin

QUOTE
Ultimul caz a fost inregistrat in urma cu o saptamina cind un copil diagnosticat la Ionaseni ca fiind suferind de hernie a fost plimbat pe drumuri, fiind refuzat de medicii de la Spitalul Municipal Dorohoi care au decis ca respectivul caz nu este de competenta lor. Copilul a fost transportat de urgenta la Botosani unde a stat internat o zi, timp in care nu i s-a facut nici o analiza, ci doar o simpla papaverina care ar fi putut fi facuta oricind la Ionaseni. La aceasta ora copilul este in stare grava, conducerea caminului facindu-si griji in privinta starii de sanatate a acestuia. In mai putin de o saptamina copilul a slabit mai mult de 10 kilograme, refuzind orice aliment.

http://www.ziaruldeiasi.ro/local/botosani/...-spitale~ni1eih

March, nici o legatura. Universul e compus din lucruri separate fara nici o legatura intre ele.
turbo trabant
QUOTE(jet li @ 30 Jun 2009, 12:56 PM) *
Pai probabil ca mai sunt. Unde am zis eu ca nu mai sunt. La cum se poarta oamenii moderni cu ei asta e. Si de ce s-ar purta altfel, ei insisi sunt defectati de era moderna. Pentru ca societatea moderna sa functioneze de astia avem nevoie. Semi oameni, masini, suruburi, executanti, visatori la bani, etc.

De ce nu adopti tu , prea purule si nemodernule, niste copii (fie si nehandicapati)? ohyeah.gif

Madonna rullz rofl.gif
jet li
Nu bani.
turbo trabant
QUOTE(jet li @ 30 Jun 2009, 01:27 PM) *
Nu bani.

Pai tigancile cum face manca-ti-as? sorry.gif

Iti spun eu cum faci bani: iei unul si il vinzi la niste elvetieni. Cu banii pe el, ai bani sa il intretii pe al doilea forever. Biznis curat, moral ( 1 plasat la elvetieni , al doilea scos din orfelinat).


Nu bani e problema. Lenea rofl.gif
jet li
Hell's Angels - un trib modern.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2917470813040343101

Aceasi libertate individuala totala si lipsa ordinelor, nici unul din ei nu dadea ordine celorlalti, iar seful la fel ca seful de trib indian era sef pentru ca era respectat. Nu pentru ca avea el "functie". La fel ca seful de trib nici el nu putea da ordine directe sub amenintare. Era ascultat din respect. In rest orice "angel" putea sa plece daca avea chef, restul ii respectau decizia stiind ca nici lor nu le place sa le spuna nimeni ce sa faca. Avem deci o mare ceata de individualisti care nu accepta nici un ordin de la nimeni dar stau impreuna - pentru ca le place. Contribuie la grup si se ajuta intre ei fara sa ceara bani - gift based economy.

Mai sunt multe de spus.

turbo trabant
QUOTE(jet li @ 30 Jun 2009, 07:53 PM) *
Hell's Angels - un trib modern.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2917470813040343101

Aceasi libertate individuala totala si lipsa ordinelor, nici unul din ei nu dadea ordine celorlalti, iar seful la fel ca seful de trib indian era sef pentru ca era respectat. Nu pentru ca avea el "functie". La fel ca seful de trib nici el nu putea da ordine directe sub amenintare. Era ascultat din respect. In rest orice "angel" putea sa plece daca avea chef, restul ii respectau decizia stiind ca nici lor nu le place sa le spuna nimeni ce sa faca. Avem deci o mare ceata de individualisti care nu accepta nici un ordin de la nimeni dar stau impreuna - pentru ca le place. Contribuie la grup si se ajuta intre ei fara sa ceara bani - gift based economy.

Mai sunt multe de spus.


Ha ha ha , hell's angels e cea mai misto modalitate de a scapa de neveste cicalitoare si de a te da cu motoru' de harley.

Bati campii cu gratie rofl.gif
March
Jet Li
Tu din ce trib faci parte ?
CharonOfNyx
Pana cand doar altii sa aibe triburile lor moderne?!?! Pana si americanii au triburile lor!

Uite aici un exemplu de la noi:

Aceasi libertate individuala totala si lipsa ordinelor.

asta ar trebui sa fie un lider, pardon sef

se vede ca el o are cea mai mare, deci impune respect. Nici el nu ar putea da ordine directe sub amenintare, este ascultat doar din respect!
turbo trabant
QUOTE(CharonOfNyx @ 1 Jul 2009, 11:35 AM) *
se vede ca el o are cea mai mare, deci impune respect. Nici el nu ar putea da ordine directe sub amenintare, este ascultat doar din respect!

Valoarea mea, valoarea mea , nu o are nimenea....

Cantec de trib indian .
jet li
Nu stiti nimic. Imaginati-va ca merg Hell's Angels pe drum si incepe sefu :mergem in directia aia, fara explicatii ca asa vreau eu. Poate il asculta de curiosi. Daca o tine tot asa si in zilele urmatoare il lasa sa se duca singur. Nu sunt la armata. Ce va imaginati ca incepe sa-i bata sau ce ? Nu poate da ordine decat daca e respectat. Si nici nu sunt ordine sunt "idei" sau "sfaturi" - cand e ascultat.
Asa e intr-un trib/grup de prieteni. Asa erau si sefii la indieni, consiliul batranilor - care nu era ales, faceau parte din el oricine era mai batran, dadea sfaturi dar nu putea impune celor tineri ce sa faca.
turbo trabant
QUOTE(jet li @ 1 Jul 2009, 06:49 PM) *
Nu stiti nimic. Imaginati-va ca merg Hell's Angels pe drum si incepe sefu :mergem in directia aia, fara explicatii ca asa vreau eu.

La primul stop trecut pe rosu , sefu ramane fara HD rofl.gif drool.gif

Mai ai din astea, "sa va povestesc eu cum se merge cu motoreta Mobra "? ohmy.gif
Blakut
QUOTE
Nu stiti nimic. Imaginati-va ca merg Hell's Angels pe drum si incepe sefu :mergem in directia aia, fara explicatii ca asa vreau eu. Poate il asculta de curiosi. Daca o tine tot asa si in zilele urmatoare il lasa sa se duca singur. Nu sunt la armata. Ce va imaginati ca incepe sa-i bata sau ce ? Nu poate da ordine decat daca e respectat. Si nici nu sunt ordine sunt "idei" sau "sfaturi" - cand e ascultat.
Asa e intr-un trib/grup de prieteni. Asa erau si sefii la indieni, consiliul batranilor - care nu era ales, faceau parte din el oricine era mai batran, dadea sfaturi dar nu putea impune celor tineri ce sa faca.


Intre doua sesiuni de carat droguri peste granita si batut concurenta, cred ca se mai gandeste sefu' si la dickstractia motocicletilor sai... ii duce mai incolo la stripclub. Unde nobilul salbatic urmeaza "ideile" si "sfaturile" sefului.
March
QUOTE(jet li @ 1 Jul 2009, 07:49 PM) *
Asa e intr-un trib/grup de prieteni. Asa erau si sefii la indieni, consiliul batranilor - care nu era ales, faceau parte din el oricine era mai batran, dadea sfaturi dar nu putea impune celor tineri ce sa faca.

Da' de boasemanul ala de mai sus nu zici nimic ?
turbo trabant
QUOTE(Blakut @ 1 Jul 2009, 06:58 PM) *
Intre doua sesiuni de carat droguri peste granita si batut concurenta, cred ca se mai gandeste sefu' si la dickstractia motocicletilor sai... ii duce mai incolo la stripclub. Unde nobilul salbatic urmeaza "ideile" si "sfaturile" sefului.

e, hai ca aia era acu vreo 30 de ani. acum HA sunt contabili, chirurgi, mecanici, avocati , baieti cu 'cariera' , burtica, nevasta cu gura mare si alte chestii. se iese grupir la berica , fomei si ahem alte chestii. ingerasu vine acasa si povesteste la nevasta de 'setea de libertate' devil.gif

cine nu stie, acum hell's angels is ditamai brandu' cu copyrightu' cat casa. rofl.gif

oricum HD rullz
March
Pai mai sunt unii pe baricade : Mongols
CharonOfNyx
jet li esti mortal.
Ai pornit de la paradisul pierdut si de la puritatea vietii sociale a comunitatilor ancestrale. In fine asta e foarte ok, pana la un punct. Si eu sunt de acord ca omenirea nu poate sa invete indeajuns din propria-i istorie, sau ca pot fi gasite adevarate valori morale la bosimani sa zicem. Dar de aici pana la a nega total civilizatia actuala, asa decadenta si naspa cum e ea, e cale mare.
Acum ai ajuns sa prezinti ca model de organizare sociala gasti de derbedei si sa invidiezi triburile, pardon satrele de tigani. Si la toate comentariile raspunzi cu "Nu stiti nimic" sau "Nu ai inteles nimic". E clar ca nimeni nu poate atinge nivelul tau de intelegere. tongue.gif

Sa nu ma intelegi gresit. Crede-ma ca o data, era prin anii '80, m-am intalnit cu un trib de asta de tigani nomazi si am stat cu ei "la masa", in jurul focului. Nu cred ca-s nici rai nici buni, sau mai corect sunt si rai si buni. Se oprisera cu carutele cu coviltir langa un lan de poarumb, prin care era si floarea soarelui. Au luat de acolo din toate, dar nu au devastat nimic. Ne-au intrebat pe noi daca eram proprietarii lanului, ca vroiau sa sa ne plateasca cumva si asa am intrat cu ei in vorba.

Ti-am spus intamplarea asta, doar ca nu cumva sa-mi raspunzi cu "nu stii nimic". Pentru ca vreau sa adaug ca esti de-a dreptul halucinant in admiratia ta pentru triburile astea mai mult sau mai putin moderne.
jet li
Conteaza cum se poarta oamenii din trib intre ei. Din afara pot fi vazuti ca salbatici sau "derbedei". E normal sa fie in conflict cu civilizatia, nu au un teritoriu al lor unde sa poata trai din ce au acolo - fara sa munceasca. Cum au facut oamenii milioane de ani si inca fac lucrul asta unde nu am ajuns "noi".
Ideea ca de la o anumita varsta in viata e normal sa iti pierzi 8 ore pe zi facand lucruri neinteresante (asa trbuie sa fie) e propaganda. Divide et impera. Cultura stapanilor de sclavi. Numai divizati acceptam asa ceva. Si suntem divizati-separati intre noi inca de la gradinita. Chiar mai devreme.
Am spus - copii din triburi nu au jocuri competitive nici jocuri de-a razboiul. Nu simteau nevoia sa dovedeasca ceva pentru a fi "acceptati". Simteau deja ca sunt acceptati total si nu mai aveau nevoie sa dovedeasca nimic nimanui.

Hell's Angels asta sunt - un trib fara teritoriu. Fata de sistem ei sunt "banditi". Intre ei sunt frati. Aceleasi legaturi povestite de aia care au fost la razboi impreuna. Asa erau si vechile triburi. Hell's Angels nu vin la tine in oras sa "loot and pillage". Desi sunt "rebeli" si cauta libertatea, ei nu ii vad pe ceilalti oameni ca "tribul inamic". Stiu ca oamenii obisnuiti nu au nimic cu ei. ca Si triburile indienilor erau mari, erai prieten cu cei din grupul tau, si altii, dar tot tribul nu putei sa il cunosti.

Era un interviu prin filmul de mai sus "Cum e sa locuiesti pe aceasi strada cu Hell's Angels ?" "Foarte bine, ne ajuta sunt respectuosi si nici un hot nu indrazneste sa vina aici" .

De asta admir eu triburile : libertate, modul in care oamenii se poarta intre ei, lipsa muncii, toata viata fiind o joaca. Neverland ? Ia ziceti de ce sunt copii fascinati de "Pirati" ? Si ni se pare normal lucrul asta - dar apoi propaganda stapanilor de sclavi intervine "bine bine, acum lasa aiurelile si treci la munca". De parca munca ar fi "sfanta". Asta tot propaganda e. Daca e asa de sfanta de ce vor toti sa ajunga bogati si sa stea ? Pentru ca sunt "decazuti", "pacatosi" ? smile.gif
Nu zic sa nu faci ce iti place. Tocmai - sa faci ce iti place nu e munca. Cum ar fi sa faci ce iti place tot timpul ?

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter6-4.php
QUOTE
Young people know it most certainly; we call that knowledge idealism.
They know that there is a way the world is supposed to be, and a magnificent role for themselves in that more beautiful world. Broken to the lesser lives we offer them, they react with hostility, rage, cynicism, depression, escapism, or self-destruction—all the defining qualities of modern adolescence. Then we blame them for not bringing these qualities under control, and when they finally have given up their idealism we call them mature. Having given up their idealism, they can get on with the business of survival: practicality and security, comfort and safety, which is what we are left with in the absence of purpose. So we suggest they major in something practical, stay out of trouble, don't take risks, build a résumé. We think we are practical and wise in the ways of the world. Really we are just broken and afraid. We are afraid on their behalf, and, less nobly, we are afraid of what their idealism shows us: the plunder and betrayal of our own youthful possibilities. The recovery of purpose, the acceptance of teleology into the language of science, promises whether directly or metaphorically to undo all of that.


Oamenii nu traiesc doar sa "supravietuiasca"
QUOTE
You have church groups, relief agencies, military operators, social scientists, archeologist's, etc...all dying to get their hands on people like this. Of course, they would get killed trying to do it from the ground, these tribes will out and out kill you as an outsider. The west shows up with radios and food, they look at it hastly and toss it aside, tell you to leave. One kid starts messing with the radio and picks up some music, people in the tribe start to get intrigued. They open up the food, and have a taste, its good and safe. A few weeks later, a landrover shows up with more things, they communicate in archaic means, give them t-shirts with Nike logos and shoes to boot.

They move into the nearest big city, get shaved up, loose the war paint and get a job cleaning urinals at the local Hilton hotel. Before you know it, the tribe has lost contact with each other and the people individually begin to enter into a deep cycle of poverty, they are unbelievably sad. They get a group of people back together, by shear luck, they take a bus to the border of the inhabited areas, they go and take rental cars as far as they can go. They walk back into their lands, its nothing but smoke, machinery, cane fields and a totally lost culture. They go back, live off the rest of their lives a miserable existence. In Brazil, we talked to Army guys that were born into these kinds of situations, they can talk about this stuff at great length. It so sad to listen to, they were living a fairly decent life. They had death and other issues, but at the very least they were happy, until man showed up and tempted them.

The story gets repeated over and over again so many times people have lost count. When I would train in areas like this in S.A., we would run into friendly tribes, I always told them to just hold onto what you have and ignore us. We cannot do anything better for you than you can for yourself. We are just passing through. The only time I'd do anything for them was to help someone who was injured, I had medicine so I gave it to them. Never stayed to see if the antibiotics worked out, but thats about the limit of my engagements. They need to be left alone, its better in the jungle than in the city.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-46...e-Tanzania.html
QUOTE

The plan by the Arabs to buy their land is all the more ironic: the Hadza have no concept of private property, roaming unchecked for thousands of years alongside the animals they hunt.

Nevertheless, the Tanzanian government has repeatedly tried to 'tame' the Hadza, building houses and trying to teach them to grow crops. One attempt to resettle them ended when a dozen perished when they were forced into modern homes.

"They just rotted inside and died," said Charles Ngereza, a tribal expert.
turbo trabant
QUOTE(jet li @ 3 Jul 2009, 10:24 AM) *
Hell's Angels asta sunt - un trib fara teritoriu. Fata de sistem ei sunt "banditi". Intre ei sunt frati. Aceleasi legaturi povestite de aia care au fost la razboi impreuna. Asa erau si vechile triburi. Hell's Angels nu vin la tine in oras sa "loot and pillage". Desi sunt "rebeli" si cauta libertatea, ei nu ii vad pe ceilalti oameni ca "tribul inamic". Stiu ca oamenii obisnuiti nu au nimic cu ei.

Ha ha iar iei linkurile alea minunate ale tale drept adevar absolut. Citesti pe nerasuflate brosuri de marketing ale hell's angels. mwah1.gif
CharonOfNyx
QUOTE(jet li @ 3 Jul 2009, 11:24 AM) *
Conteaza cum se poarta oamenii din trib intre ei. Din afara pot fi vazuti ca salbatici sau "derbedei". E normal sa fie in conflict cu civilizatia, nu au un teritoriu al lor unde sa poata trai din ce au acolo - fara sa munceasca. Cum au facut oamenii milioane de ani si inca fac lucrul asta unde nu am ajuns "noi".
Ideea ca de la o anumita varsta in viata e normal sa iti pierzi 8 ore pe zi facand lucruri neinteresante (asa trbuie sa fie) e propaganda. Divide et impera. Cultura stapanilor de sclavi. Numai divizati acceptam asa ceva. Si suntem divizati-separati intre noi inca de la gradinita. Chiar mai devreme.
Am spus - copii din triburi nu au jocuri competitive nici jocuri de-a razboiul. Nu simteau nevoia sa dovedeasca ceva pentru a fi "acceptati". Simteau deja ca sunt acceptati total si nu mai aveau nevoie sa dovedeasca nimic nimanui.

Hell's Angels asta sunt - un trib fara teritoriu. Fata de sistem ei sunt "banditi". Intre ei sunt frati.

De asta admir eu triburile : libertate, modul in care oamenii se poarta intre ei, lipsa muncii, toata viata fiind o joaca. Neverland ? Ia ziceti de ce sunt copii fascinati de "Pirati" ?

smile.gif

esti de neclintit, die hard 8 wink.gif

Daca-mi povesteai ceva de genul:
"am trait 5 ani in kalahari, impreuna cu un trib de bosimani, am 2 copii cu sotia mea bosimanca..."
"de 3 ani de zile cutreier America impreuna cu motociclistii aia si sefu' nu mi-a dat niciodata un pumn in bot ca sa-mi ia gagica..."
"am batut toata europa intr-o carutza cu coviltir... "
"traiesc in Cuba de 5 ani de zile, iar sistemul lu' Fidelu' este extraordinar, nu cum spun occidentalii... "

... pe cuvantul meu, ca ai avea toata consideratia mea. jamie.gif
Dar tu nu spui decat povesti induiosatoare de pe net. Parca ne povestesti telenovele.

Ia uite, de exemplu, ce aberatii poti scoate din cauza asta:
QUOTE
Am spus - copii din triburi nu au jocuri competitive nici jocuri de-a razboiul.

Eu stiam taman pe dos, ca toti copiii oamenilor indiferent de statutul lor social, toti puii mamiferelor indiferent ca-s ierbivore sau carnivore, fac chestiile astea.
Tu nu te-ai batut niciodata cand erai copil? Sau crezi ca te-a conditionat civilizatia sa faci asta? Sau tu doar luai bataie si de aia esti asa suparat acum pe societate?

Hai, mai jet li, ca esti baiat simpatic, dar mai pune si tu picioarele pe pamant thumb_yello.gif
jet li
Aia care a scris "The Continuum Concept" spune exact treaba asta. Copii din tribul vizitat de ea nu se bateau si nu aveau jocuri de-a razboiul. La fel spune cineva despre bosimani. Doar un copil care nu traiese in trib cand era mic dadea in ceilalti, care nu reactionau pentru ca nu era ceva obisnuit. Pentru ca avea nevoia sa fie acceptat, fiind atata timp separat de trib, singur, era nesigur pe el.
March
QUOTE(jet li @ 3 Jul 2009, 11:24 AM) *
Era un interviu prin filmul de mai sus "Cum e sa locuiesti pe aceasi strada cu Hell's Angels ?" "Foarte bine, ne ajuta sunt respectuosi si nici un hot nu indrazneste sa vina aici" .

rofl.gif Esti ca o oaie ratacita ! Parca in Biblie se spune ceva despre asta ?
jet li
QUOTE
Then there are the Chugach Natives of Alaska. The Port of Valdez, Alaska, is arguably one of the most valuable pieces of real estate on Earth, the only earthquake-safe ice-free port in Alaska that could load oil from the giant North Slope field. In 1969, Exxon and British Petroleum companies took the land from the Chugach and paid them one dollar. I kid you not.

Wally Hickel, the former Governor of Alaska, dismissed my suggestion that the Chugach deserved a bit more respect (and cash) for their property. "Land ownership comes in two ways, Mr. Palast." explained the governor and pipeline magnate, "Purchase or conquest. The fact that your granddaddy chased a caribou across the land doesn't make it yours." The Chugach had lived there for 3,000 years.

No oil company would dream of digging on the Bush family properties in Midland, Texas, without paying a royalty. Or drilling near Malibu without the latest in environmental protections. But when Natives are on top of Exxon's or BP's glory hole, suddenly, the great defenders of private property rights turn quite Bolshevik: lands can be seized for The Public's Need for Oil.


Some Natives are "re-located" through legal flim-flam, some at gunpoint. The less lucky are left to wallow, literally, in the gunk left by the drilling process.

http://www.gregpalast.com/oil-and-indians-...-mix/#more-2549
March
@Jet Li
Ti-am mai spus. Da un rezumat in rromineste cu trimitere la polologhia in engleza.
jet li
Cand e vorba de respectarea proprietatii - conteaza cati bani ai. Nimeni nu vine la ferma lui Bush sa ii spuna : "pleaca ba, e nevoie de petrol pentru tara si popor". Vine si plateste cat ii cere.
Daca insa doar ai trait acolo cateva mii de ani, nu poti sta in calea binelui comun, aparatorii dreptului la proprietate , America, capitalism, democratie, imediat devin comunisti si spun "pentru binele comun, sa aiba lumea petrol, o sa dispareti de aici si o sa ne lasati sa foram, mai vreti si bani ?".
turbo trabant
eu sunt curios daca jet prezinta aceste linkuri si la colegii de munca smile.gif.

jet taica, nu vrei sa muncesti , fa-ti taica sindicat biggrin.gif
jet li
Da ce, tu vrei sa muncesti ? Daca te imbogatesti mai "vrei" ? Daca insa se intampla sa faci cea ce faci la munca, pentru ca iti place, fara program, sefi, instructiuni, sau probleme de profit, chiar daca este exact acelasi lucru - aia nu e munca, e joaca si asa trebuie sa fie tot ce facem. Organizarea nu ne permite.

Vedeti compania aia din Japonia care scaneaza fata angajatilor cu un computer sa fie siguri ca zambesc pentru clienti. Asta e "era moderna" in esenta ei.
http://cryptogon.com/?p=9735

QUOTE
One of the most pernicious manifestations of the control and, therefore, elimination of play has come through organized sports, which started with Little League and extend today into all sports and all age groups. The sandlot, the playground, the neighborhood, and the vacant lot, where children were once free to hammer out their own rules, choose their own teams, and resolve their own disputes, have been replaced by yet another supervised realm where play means going through a prescribed set of motions and where the social interaction is mediated and guided by authority. In a way, the children do not play the game at all: the game plays the children, who are just accessories, placeholders fulfilling functions determined by rules created and enforced by adults. Here play has lost its essential creative nature. I do not know what to call it, but it really is not play any more at all. It is, however, an excellent conditioning method for producing people who look to authority for instructions on how to "play the game". Have you ever felt like you are, still, one of these "placeholders" fulfilling functions determined and enforced by some unchallengeable authority?

The globe of my childhood was already a step away from real life, the open-ended infinite that is nature, the real world. Already, what I was exploring was a manufactured representation of the world. At least, though, my experience within the confines of that representation was unprogrammed. Through my imaginings, I still played with that globe. It did not play me, turn me into its operator, the button-pusher that moves the game from start to finish.

Like a child moving through his lessons at school, making his way through the prescribed body of information that constitutes an "education," like a bunch of confused six-year-olds trying to follow the instructions of their t-ball coach, so do we move through modern life. We go through the steps of a life prepared for us by others, a life that is not our own. As the final step in the conversion of the whole world into money, we are selling off our very lives.


What is important here is not so much money but control. The destruction of the human spirit, accomplished mostly during childhood and maintained to the grave, is another aspect of the taming of the wild, the conquest of nature, the fulfillment of the technological and scientific program at the level of the individual. Life, in other words, has been brought under control, or so we would persuade ourselves. Why else the emphasis on safety, security, and practicality? As observed, these boil down to an emphasis on survival, which, in our specialized society, is a function of money. Again, we are selling off our very lives, purchasing experiences instead of creating them, being run by our machines, our schedules, our clocks and our calendars. Time is money.

There are other aspects to the conversion of spiritual capital into money, the diminishment of the human spirit for the sake of profit. Each human being is born as a magnificent, creative, spontaneous spirit, an enormous spiritual being capable of incredible feats of learning. To reduce that spirit to something willing to occupy one of the narrow, meaningless roles in society as we know it, to make that spirit accept the imitation of life today's world offers (and upon which our economy depends), is an enormous enterprise and a shameful crime. We do not really understand what is happening when, as children and teenagers, vast swaths of our spirit are sold off to the demands of the monetized world. We know only that we have been robbed.

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter4-7.php
March
QUOTE(jet li @ 8 Jul 2009, 10:30 AM) *
Vedeti compania aia din Japonia care scaneaza fata angajatilor cu un computer sa fie siguri ca zambesc pentru clienti.

Si care-i treaba ta ? Ca doar tu traiesti printre bosimani si nu in Japonia .
Felina
QUOTE(jet li @ 8 Jul 2009, 08:30 AM) *
Daca insa se intampla sa faci cea ce faci la munca, pentru ca iti place, fara program, sefi, instructiuni, sau probleme de profit, chiar daca este exact acelasi lucru - aia nu e munca, e joaca si asa trebuie sa fie tot ce facem.


thumb_yello.gif


Si totusi, societatea iti permite sa fi liber intreprinzator, poti lucra pe cont propriu si sa traiesti de pe urma muncii tale, singura problema e ca dupa atatia ani de scoala si de indoctrinare cu valorile societatii moderne, prea putini isi mai gasesc curajul sa creada ca pot face fata vietii pe cont propriu, daca nu in afara sistemului, macar la marginea lui.
jet li
QUOTE
"The twentieth-century linguistic revolution," says Boston University anthropologist Misia Landau, "is the recognition that language is not merely a device for communicating ideas about the world, but rather a tool for bringing the world into existence in the first place. Reality is not simply `experienced' or `reflected' in language, but instead is actually produced by language. "

From the point of view of the psychedelic shaman, the world appears to be more in the nature of an utterance or a tale than in any way related to the leptons and baryons or charge and spin that our high priests, the physicists, speak of. For the shaman, the cosmos is a tale that becomes true as it is told, and as it tells itself.
-----------

Because our maps of reality are determined by our present circumstances, we tend to lose awareness of the larger patterns of time and space. Only by gaining access to the Transcendent Other can those patterns of time and space and our role in them be glimpsed. Shamanism strives for this higher point of view, which is achieved through a feat of linguistic prowess. A shaman is one who has attained a vision of the beginnings and the endings of all things and who can communicate that vision. To the rational thinker, this is inconceivable, yet the techniques of shamanism are directed toward this end and this is the source of their power.

--------------

Common sense assumes that, though languages are always evolving, the raw stuff of what language expresses is relatively constant and common to all humans. Yet we also know that the Hopi language has no past or future tenses or concepts. How, then, can the Hopi world be like ours? And the Inuit have no first-person pronoun. How, then, can their world be like ours?


http://www.the-globalvillage.com/polityzen...e-Gods_v1.0.pdf

Indienii Lakota nu aveau cuvantul "eu". Nu exista in limba lor. Intotdeauna era vorba de :"noi". Cu toate astea nu erau "multi da prosti" ci foarte individuali si liberi (Adica distincti dar nu in sensul de "separati"). Cum poate fi lumea lor la fel ca a noastra ?
Rehael
E foarte interesant ce spui legat de cuvantul "noi". Ma gandesc ca poate fi doar o "mostenire" straveche a limbii tribului, pentru ca nu-mi pot imagina ca mai poti fi atat de liber si individualist asimilandu-l permanent cu ideea de unitate a comunitatii.
Este o situatie similara celei din limba engleza, in care ai putea sa spui ca nu exista decat cuvantul "voi" sau "dumneavoastra", nicidecum "tu". Ceea ce ar lasa sa se inteleaga ca englezii ar fi un popor extrem de respectuos, care vorbesc orisicui cu dumneavoastra, dar in realitate... sunt in limitele normalului, anomalia de exprimare netransformandu-i pe toti englezii in persoane respectoase.
jet li
QUOTE(Rehael @ 13 Jul 2009, 03:33 PM) *
E foarte interesant ce spui legat de cuvantul "noi". Ma gandesc ca poate fi doar o "mostenire" straveche a limbii tribului, pentru ca nu-mi pot imagina ca mai poti fi atat de liber si individualist asimilandu-l permanent cu ideea de unitate a comunitatii.


Crezi ca putea cineva sa ii dea ordine lui Crazy Horse ? Sau oricarui indian ? Intre ei nici unul nu ii spunea altuia ce sa faca, la fel cum intre prieteni nu ai nici o dorinta sa incepi sa dai ordine. Nu exista un ego separat de trib.

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter4-1.php
QUOTE
As that word mine indicates, ownership implies an attachment of things to self. The more we own, the more we are. The constellation of me and mine grows. But no matter how large the discrete and separate self grows, it is still far smaller than the self of the hunter-gatherer. The pre-separation mind is able to affirm, all at once and without contradiction, "I am this body," "I am this tribe," "I am the jungle," "I am the world." No matter how much of the jungle we control, we are smaller than the one who knows, "I am the jungle." No matter how dominant we are socially, we are far less than one who knows, "I am my tribe." And far less secure, too, because all of these appendages to our tiny separate selves may be easily sundered from us. We are therefore perpetually and irremediably insecure. We go to great lengths to protect all these accessories of identity, our possessions and money and reputations, and when our house is burglarized, our wallet stolen, or our reputation besmirched, we feel as if our very selves have been violated.

Not only does our acquisitiveness arise out of separation, it reinforces it as well. The notion that a forest, a gene, an idea, an image, a song is a separate thing that admits ownership is quite new. Who are we to own a piece of the world, to separate out a part of the sacred universe and make it mine? Such hubris, once unknown in the world, has had the unfortunate effect of separating out ourselves as well from the matrix of reality, cutting us off (in experience if not in fact) from each other, from nature, and from spirit. By objectifying the world and everything in it, by making an other of the world, we necessarily objectify ourselves as well in relation to that other. The self becomes a lonely and isolated ego, connected to the world pragmatically but not in essence, afraid of death and thus closed to life.


QUOTE
To a person identified with tribe, forest, and planet, the death of the body and all it controls is far less frightening. Another way to describe such a person is that he or she is in love with the world. Love is antidote to fear of death, because it expands one's boundaries beyond what can be lost. Conversely, fear of death blocks love by shutting us in and making us small. And fear of death is built into our ideology—the self-definition implicit in objectivist science.

Money and property simply enforce this self-definition. They are concrete manifestations of the separate self, the self that is afraid of death and closed to love. Money, in its present form, is anti-love. But it is not the root of all evil, just another expression of separation, another piece of the puzzle. Other systems of money are possible that have the opposite effect of our present currency, structurally discouraging the accumulation of me and mine. Curious? Keep reading... I'll get to them in Chapter Seven.
Rehael
QUOTE(jet li @ 13 Jul 2009, 02:54 PM) *
Crezi ca putea cineva sa ii dea ordine lui Crazy Horse ? Sau oricarui indian ? Intre ei nici unul nu ii spunea altuia ce sa faca, la fel cum intre prieteni nu ai nici o dorinta sa incepi sa dai ordine. Nu exista un ego separat de trib.


Adica zici ca era un trib fara sef si fara sfatul batranilor? Ma cam indoiesc... smile.gif
Daca niste oameni sunt prieteni, asta nu inseamna ca nu se vor sfatui niciodata, ceea ce inseamna ca unul dintre ei. la un moment dat, poate sa asculte ce-i spune altul sa faca.
March
QUOTE(jet li @ 13 Jul 2009, 02:54 PM) *
Crezi ca putea cineva sa ii dea ordine lui Crazy Horse ? Sau oricarui indian ? Intre ei nici unul nu ii spunea altuia ce sa faca, la fel cum intre prieteni nu ai nici o dorinta sa incepi sa dai ordine. Nu exista un ego separat de trib.


Ai calatorit in Canada sau US ? Ai fost vreodata in vreo rezervatie a indienilor de acolo ? Da' intr-un cazino ce-l opereaza ei in aceste rezervatii ?
turbo trabant
QUOTE(March @ 13 Jul 2009, 02:32 PM) *
Ai fost vreodata in vreo rezervatie a indienilor de acolo ?

toti indienii au harley davidson si sunt membri cu carnetel in clubul de golf hell's angels. rofl.gif
jet li
QUOTE(Rehael @ 13 Jul 2009, 04:00 PM) *
Adica zici ca era un trib fara sef si fara sfatul batranilor? Ma cam indoiesc... smile.gif
Daca niste oameni sunt prieteni, asta nu inseamna ca nu se vor sfatui niciodata, ceea ce inseamna ca unul dintre ei. la un moment dat, poate sa asculte ce-i spune altul sa faca.

Cea ce inseamna ca nu se dau ordine. Sfatul e sfat. Nu ordin pentru care sa fii pedepsit. Intr-un grup de prieteni, de ce stati impreuna ? Daca stati impreuna inseamna cumva ca nu faceti nimic ? Sau ca daca unul nu are chef de ceva il fortati ? Daca unul spune sa faceti ceva - sunt sigur ca nu il consideri un ordin. E urmat doar daca e respectat, la fel ca un sef indian.
Desigur, daca unul incepe sa va bata sau sa va omoare- e exclus din grup. La fel cum era exilat de indieni. Fara nici o lege, nu e nevoie de asa ceva.
Nu vorbesc de indienii de azi. Vorbesc de triburi.
Rehael
Buey, adica daca cineva ar fi incalcat legea tribului nu i-ar fi fost aplicata nici o corectie, asa cu toata prietenia?
jet li
Nu existau legi scrise nici pedepse impersonale. Legile unui grup de prieteni. Fa ceva care sa nege idea ca esti prieten cu ceilalti si o sa fii "pedepsit". Fara nimic formal, dar e foarte simplu : nu mai poti sta in tribul tau dupa ce ai omorat unul din ei de ex.

Dar am deviat de la ce ziceam : nu exista cuvantul "eu".

QUOTE
The Moken, also known as the "sea gypsies", are a nomadic people living off the coasts of Burma and Thailand.

In their language, there is no word for " want."

Think about it.
(Above reported in The Sunday Times.)

This reminded me of my visit to the Quechuan Indians high up in the Andes in Peru in 1998. Most of the tribe had never met anyone from the " developed world" at that time.

In their language, there is no word for "I" nor indeed is there any word for "doubt."

I recall asking one of their leaders whether or not he ever got depressed. My English was translated to Spanish and then to Quechuan. Pasculito the Shaman was mindboggled by this word. Couldn't understand it!

No want, no I, no doubt - developed wisdom from an "undeveloped world."
Rehael
QUOTE
Fa ceva care sa nege idea ca esti prieten cu ceilalti si o sa fii "pedepsit".


Si ce-i asa de deosebit in treaba asta? Mi se pare ca se intampla exact ca in comunitatile fetelor palide.

Iar in ceea ce priveste cuvantul "eu", e o anomalie de aceeasi natura ca englezescul "you".
jet li
"anomalie" ? Ce i aia ?
"de aceasi natura" ?
Vezi mai sus. Treaba cu lipsa "eu" era des intalnita in triburi.

QUOTE
The pre-separation mind is able to affirm, all at once and without contradiction, "I am this body," "I am this tribe," "I am the jungle," "I am the world." No matter how much of the jungle we control, we are smaller than the one who knows, "I am the jungle." No matter how dominant we are socially, we are far less than one who knows, "I am my tribe." And far less secure, too, because all of these appendages to our tiny separate selves may be easily sundered from us

Rehael
QUOTE(jet li @ 13 Jul 2009, 04:22 PM) *
"anomalie" ? Ce i aia ?
"de aceasi natura" ?
Vezi mai sus. Treaba cu lipsa "eu" era des intalnita in triburi.


Si daca?... Nici englezii nu sunt neaparat politicosi cand iti vorbesc cu "you". Asa cum you poate insemna si tu si voi si dumneavoastra, este posibil ca si ei sa aiba un singur cuvant pentru "eu" si "noi", cum si noi avem un singur cuvant "ochi", atat pentru singular cat si pentru plural.
March
QUOTE(turbo trabant @ 13 Jul 2009, 03:34 PM) *
toti indienii au harley davidson si sunt membri cu carnetel in clubul de golf hell's angels. rofl.gif

Cica nu exista "eu" la indienii astia. Ce le trebuie atata timp cat ei ( asta exista ) primesc lunar o gramada de bani de la Unchiul Sam cica pentru pamanturile furate ?!
Plus alta gramada de gratuitati si tigari si bautura free tax, sistem propriu de asistenta medicala gratuita , case si utilitati gratuite si alte facilitati toate separate de sistemul legal federal astfel ca daca un indian comite un delict si se refugiaza in rezervatie acesta nu poate fi "extradat" autoritatilor federale decat cu aprobarea "guvernului " tribal al rezervatiei !
jet li
QUOTE
What, then, of the victims? What shall we say to the men, women, and children whose ruined lives have followed in the wake of our "ascent"? Should we not lament the billions of passenger pigeons whose flocks once darkened the skies? Should we not mourn the dodo, the great auk, the American chestnut, and the millions more now following them to extinction? What of the elder bushes, a century old, keystone species of a fantastic ecology torn up and paved over to build a new road? What of the forests turned to deserts? The native children shot for sport by white settlers? The women tortured and burned alive as witches for practicing herbal medicine? The schoolchildren today, cajoled, coerced, and medicated into spending the Kingdom of Childhood behind a desk, in a room, standing in line? The coal miners of 19th-century England, emerging decades later stunted, broken, and destitute from the mines? The babies deprived of the breast? The women raped, the men tortured and killed, the children watching the soldiers who did it? What can we say of the concentration camps, Auschwitz, the Gulag, the unspeakable hardship of the men sentenced to a lingering death at hard labor? What shall we say to the victims of communist purges, and to the families sent a bill for the executioner's bullet? What of the black man beaten and lynched, and a picture postcard of the event sent to his mother? What shall we say to the starving children, past the point of hunger, bodies falling apart? And what shall we say to their mothers? And what of the children working working in toy factories, rug factories, chocolate plantations? The countless assembly line workers, their human creativity reduced to a few rote movements, producing empty consumer junk out of toxic materials destined sooner rather than later for the landfill? The betrayal after betrayal of the Native Americans, people massacred, lands cheated, religion outlawed, culture purposefully destroyed? The cancer victims of a poisoned world? The slaves long ago who labored on the Pyramids? Contrast a life carrying stone to the life of a hunter-gatherer, and the bargain we have made becomes clear. In this, the first monument to the Machine, the folly and the horror of our ascent is clear: an exchange of life for labor to erect a useless edifice.

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter8-5.php
March
Jet Li , aici nu-i gazeta de perete unde sa afisezi continuu asemenea extracte kilometrice si pe deasupra si in engleza. Mai lasa-ne domn'e !
jet li
Asa e la moda acu. Pe vremuri era franceza.

Uite aici unu care s-a trezit, incredibil articol pentru un ziar important din Anglia. Isi da seama de arificialitatea pentru care muncim ca prostii sa-i dam importanta si ne pierdem pe noi insine. Intr-adevar nu mai e nici o valoare a civilizatiei care sa merite respectata. Raman cele tribale. Naturale si care nu au nevoie de legi si formalitati.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20...titutions-faith
QUOTE
It's all gone wrong. Our belief in everything has been shattered by a series of shock revelations that have shaken our core to its core. You can't move for toppling institutions. Television, the economy, the police, the House of Commons, and, most recently, the press ... all revealed to be jam-packed with liars and bastards and graspers and bullies and turds.

And we knew. We knew. But we were deep in denial, like a cuckolded partner who knows the sorry truth but tries their best to ignore it. Over the last 18 months the spotlight of truth has swung this way and that, and one institution after another was suddenly exposed as being precisely as rotten as we always thought it was. What's that? Phone-in TV quizzes might a bit of con? The economic boom is an unsustainable fantasy? Riot police can be a little "handy"? MPs are greedy? The News of the World might have used underhand tactics to get a story? What next? Oxygen is flavourless? Cows stink at water polo? Children are overrated? We knew all this stuff. We just didn't have the details.


QUOTE
What about each other? Society? Can we trust us? Doubt it. We're probably not even real, as was revealed in the popular documentary The Matrix. That bloke next door? Made of pixels. Your co-workers? Pixels. You? One pixel. One measly pixel. You haven't even got shoes, for Christ's sake.

As the very fabric of life breaks down around us, even language itself seems unreliable. These words don't make sense. The vowels and consonants you're hearing in your mind's ear right now are being generated by mere squiggles on a page or screen. Pointless hieroglyphics. Shapes. You're staring at shapes and hearing them in your head. When you see the word "trust", can you even trust that? Why? It's just shapes!

Right now all our faith has poured out of the old institutions, and there's nowhere left to put it. We need new institutions to believe in, and fast. Doesn't matter what they're made of. Knit them out of string, wool, anything. Quickly, quickly. Before we start worshipping insects.


Cititi mai ales sfarsitul. Apoi cititi partea asta din "Ishmael":
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7829409/Daniel-Q...Ismael-Romanian
QUOTE
— Corect. Povestirea pe care Takerii o pun în scenă aici de zece mii de ani nu doar că e dezastruoasă pentru omenire şi pentru această lume, ci e şi fundamental nesănătoasă şi nesatisfăcătoare. Este fantezia unui megaloman, iar punerea ei în în scenă a dat Takerilor o cultură ciuruită de lăcomie, cruzime, boli mentale, infracţiuni şi dependenţă de droguri.
— Da, aşa se pare.
— Povestirea pe care Leaverii o pun în scenă aici de trei milioane de ani nu-i o povestire a cuceririi şi a stăpânirii. Punerea ei în scenă nu le dă putere. În schimb, punerea ei în scenă le dă vieţi satisfăcătoare şi pline de semnificaţie. Aste vei găsi printre aceştia. Ei nu fierb de nemulţumire şi de rebeliune, nu se ciondănesc veşnic, dezbătând ce ar trebui permis şi ce ar trebui interzis, nu se acuză intr-una unii pe alţii cum că nu trăiesc cum trebuie, nu trăiesc în teroare unii faţă de ceilalţi, nu-şi pierd minţile pentru că vieţile lor par atât de goale şi lipsite de sens, nu au nevoie să se drogheze cu stupefiante pentru a putea rezista încă o zi, nu inventează câte o nouă religie săptămânal pentru a avea ceva de care să se agaţe, nu caută într-una ceva de făcut sau ceva în care să creadă care să le facă vieţile să merite a fi trăite. Şi repet, asta nu-i din cauză că trăiesc aproape de natură sau pentru că nu au nici un fel de conducere formală sau pentru că ar fi nobili din naştere. E pur şi simplu din cauză că pun în scenă o povestire care funcţionează foarte bine pentru oameni, o povestire care a funcţionat bine timp de trei milioane de ani, şi care încă mai funcţionează bine acolo unde Takerii încă n-au reuşit s-o strivească sub picioare.



turbo trabant
QUOTE(jet li @ 16 Jul 2009, 09:17 AM) *
Intr-adevar nu mai e nici o valoare a civilizatiei care sa merite respectata.

And the Nobel prize pentru inventarea apei calde goes to....

Sa ne scrii din trib . "Valoarea mea, valoarea mea nu o are nimenea. " spoton.gif
March
QUOTE(jet li @ 16 Jul 2009, 10:17 AM) *
Asa e la moda acu. Pe vremuri era franceza.

Macar fa copy/paste in bosimana laugh.gif
Marduk
QUOTE(jet li @ 16 Jul 2009, 10:17 AM) *
Asa e la moda acu. Pe vremuri era franceza.

Takerii, Leaverii........... etc.

What a f..k is this ?

turbo trabant
QUOTE(marduk @ 18 Jul 2009, 05:44 PM) *
Takerii, Leaverii
What a f..k is[/url]

E o noua categorie: F...ker rofl.gif
jet li
marduk, ala sunt eu pe alt forum, ce crezi ca e smile.gif Gata. m-ati descoperit, va insel ! rofl.gif



-------------------------

"The men where you live," said the little prince, "raise five thousand roses in thesame garden−− and they do not find in it what they are looking for." "They do not find it," I replied. "And yet what they are looking for could be found in one single rose, or in a little water."
"Yes, that is true," I said. And the little prince added: "But the eyes are blind. One must look with the heart..."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12842911/Antoine...e-Little-Prince


-------------------------


A Hopi Indian named Sun Chief said:

"I had learned many English words and could recite part of the Ten Commandments. I knew how to sleep on a bed, pray to Jesus, comb my hair, eat with a knife and fork, and use a toilet. ... I had also learned that a person thinks with his head instead of his heart ".


-------------------------


"When Carl Jung, the great psychoanalyst, went to Taos Peublo in New Mexico in 1925, he met the chief of the native people, Ochwiay Biano. Biano told Jung that according to his people, the Whites were 'mad'-uneasy, restless, always wanting something.

Jung asked him why he thought they were mad, and the chief replied that it was because they thought with their heads, a sure sign of mental illness among his tribe. Jung asked him how he thought and he pointed to his heart. The response plunged Jung into a deep introspection that enabled him to see his race from outside himself and realise how much of the race's character was within him."


--------------------------------------


Papillon

Those who haven't been exposed to the hypocrisies of a "civilized" education react to things naturally, as they happen. It is in the here and now that they are either happy or unhappy, joyful or sad, interested or indifferent. The superiority of pure Indians like these Guajiros was striking. They could outdo us in everything: when they adopted someone, everything they had belonged to him; and when anyone showed them the least attention, they were profoundly moved


I was getting used to this life and beginning to realize that if I stayed too much longer I might lose all desire to leave.

(vedeti citatele de mai sus despre "gandire cu capul sau cu inima")

----------------------------


As Columbus wrote of the Arawak (before murdering and enslaving them), "They are so ingenuous and free with all they have, that no one would believe it who has not seen it... Of anything they possess, if it be asked of them, they never say no; on the contrary, they invite you to share it and show as much love as if their hearts went with it...
http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter5-2.php
Blakut
QUOTE
One of the most pernicious manifestations of the control and, therefore, elimination of play has come through organized sports, which started with Little League and extend today into all sports and all age groups.


Mai jet, nu mai citi texte scrise de americani. Ca ei au impresia ca sportul organizat a inceput la ei odata cu baseballul. Sporturi organizate se practicau inca din antichitate... dar deh, americanii nu erau pe vremea aia.
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