Coco, nu fi nashpa...daca o iei asa atlantii ce erau ? sau vrei sa indrepti discutia spre paleoastonautica ?
Oricum o interventie interesanta, in opinia mea cu multe zone gris si ocazionale confuzii, dar poate gresesc ...
Nu vreau sa ma dau important, desi in raport cu grupa mica nu pot fi altfel, insa imi place sa fiu considerat un partener egal intr-o discutie coerenta.
Little1, aici de fata, e campionul mondial al offtopicului, discutand de fiecare data despre altceva decat despre subiectul aflat in dezbatere...nu este o neatentie in forma continuata, ci rodul unei strategii de a deturna orice conversatie la singurul domeniu cat de cat cunoscut...ca in sceneta aia cu Florin Piersic: "crastravetele e o planta dicotiledonata....."




Adica, altfel formulat subiectul acestei dezbateri : Cine era de fapt Rudolf Hess ???

Dude...paleoastronautica...isi are rolul sau aici in Dincolo de ratiune..nu crezi?
Atlantii si Atlantida sunt o alta poveste..deosebit de ampla...sau de New Age ...depinde daca ne situam in zona "Legii lui Unu" sau intre "Fii lui Belial"...

Cei pe care i-am amintit in povestea "Thule" un neam de zei care traiau 1000 de ani fara sa imbatraneasca se spune ca ar fi mai vechi decat Atlantii.Mitul Hyperborea...



Mai bine sa lasam sistemul de mega civilizatii oculte...si sa ne intoarcem la Hess.

Little1 hai sa intram in subiect si sa lasam ce-i al Gibraltarului sa ramana in Gibraltar...avem o intreaga zona in care dezbatem acid subiecte legate de cei multi chemati dar putini alesi...de cei care aduc lumina din Anatole..

Aici Rudolf egipteanul si nu Rudoplh renul il analizam.

Daca vrem sa ne apropiem de Hess ar trebui sa trasam niste linii...
Germania a fost mult timp centrul gandirii ezoterice si al societatilor secrete... Bauer-ii (Rotschild), Casa de Windsor, Adam Weishaupt, Martin Luther..etc. A fost unul dintre centrele manipularii globale. Tema unor supraoameni care traiesc într-o civilizatie subterana/ supraterana sau a unor maestri ascunsi se regaseste în aproape toate societatile secrete si legendele lumii în care traim..cu atat mai mult in ocultismul creat si insuflat de vastele societati secrete se au precedat nasterea nazismului.
Rudolf Hess a fost un mare ocultist care il considera pe Hitler un "mesia"..dar nu numai atat...si un nebun. A fost mana cea mai eficace al celui pe care il consider artizanul si strategul Imperiului Nazist Karl Haushofer.Foarte atent si vrajit de acest Haushofer (cel care pune bazele a ceea ce azi numim Geopolitica) intra in contact cu Hitler si impreuna pun la cale Puciul din Beraria din Munchen.El fuge dar loial prietenului sau Hitler, se intoarce dupa condamnarea acestuia si impart aceeasi celula de inchisoare unde vor scrie Mein Kampf.
In momentul in care Hitler isi incepe epurarea pe criterii etnice..Haushofer singurul om din ierarhia nazista capabil de astfel de intuitie si responsabilitate, realizeaza ca se apropie sfarsitul...si pentru a nu beneficia de o soarta crunta pune la cale un plan.Folosindu-se de un pasaport de la Vatican si cu ajutorul SS se intalneste la Lisabona cu vestitul Ian Fleming (faimos pentru romanele James Bond) un cunoscut agent MI6 caruia ii impartaseste dorinta de a incheia o pace.Ajutorul pentru a infaptui cele enuntate nu putea veni decat de la Hess.Pentru ca nu putea ajunge in Anglia il trimite pe calea lojelor pe Hess care se intalneste cu Ducele de Hamilton, fiind refuzat de Churchill (se speculeaza ca Churchill avea interese pentru a continua razboiul) dar Hess este in acelasi timp si retinut si nici nu i se accepta pacea.Din acest moment Hitler realizeaza ca totii cei aflati in apropierea sa incearca sa-i submineze autoritatea si impotriva tuturor sfaturilor invadeaza Rusia.Haushofer isi pierde din putere dar chiar si asa pune la cale un asasinat impotriva lui Hitler..cel care trebuia sa-l duca la bun sfarsit fiind chiar fiul sau Albrecht.Esueaza.
Un alt lucru important...primul ocupant al "Casei de Oaspeti" din Nurnberg a fost nu Hess ci Haushofer fiind considerat un "nazist ne-periculos"...Acolo se spune ca Hess nu-si aminteste pe nici un inalt demnitar nazist ca fiind coleg cu el.De accea astazi se atribuie ideea ca Hess nu a fost de fapt judecat la Nurnberg ci o dublura a acestuia..el fiind inchis in alta parte pentru tot restul vietii.
Din toate aceste relatari nu pot decat sa speculez ca Hess a fost retinut pentru a se putea extrage acele informatii oculte despre activitatea intensa pe care Haushofer a avut-o in toata perioada nazista cat si din primul razboi mondial unde acest general nu a fost ranit niciodata desi isi comanda trupele de pe front.

Ma veti intreba de ce nu a fost retinut generalul? Pentru ca acesta in 1946 isi face harakiri in arest sau este otravit cu arsenic.

Asa ca Dude erai mai inspirat daca incepeam discutia cu Generalul Karl Haushofer...

„Cel care calareste un tigru nu se poate astepta sa scape prea usor”. (Haushofer)

@ Cocoseleeeee !
Schimb-o pe patzachina aia de la nick ! Ca nu merge cu topicuri d-astea !

March...Irina sau Miruna este o persoana interesanta...(fiica unui inalt demnitar..fost consul si actual general).Mai multe te las pe tine sa descoperi...

Aoileooo ! Am sfeclit-o ! Precis mi-au pus astia telefonul sub asculatare Io credeam ca-i Paris Hilton iar tu umbli cu fiice de generali

Cei care au obsesia/mania controlului nu sfarsesc bine, psiholgic vorbind.
Sunt atatea threaduri in acest thread (in orice thread, de altfel) incat e next to impossible sa determini ce e off si ce nu.
Basca, eu incerc sa-mi lamuresc inca o dilema la care nu s-a raspuns, legata de un reper in toata povestea asta, si anume pozitia oficiala a masoneriei fata de... sa le zic speculatiile lui R. Heiss. Daca atunci a actionat si in calitate de mason, evident ca o e necesara si o versiune oficiala.
Ce era atat de greu sa zici: dom'le, is baliverne, period. Sau viceversa.

L1

1. Ce cauta topicul asta la dincolo de ratiune? Era Hess paranormal sau extraterestru?

2. Cred ca aliatii vedeau in Hess si altceva: un tradator. Isi tradase conducatorul venind in Anglia... nu au avut incredere in el, apoi, dupa razboi,
a urmat ce a urmat.

Blackut, citeste topicul mai inainte sa faci remarci.




daaaaaaaaa, si ei mor de drum lung, iar altii de grija lor.



...poate pentru tine. Observatii care au cat de cat tangenta cu subiectul pot devia in anumite limite de la el. La tine abordarile sunt in clara opozitie cu ce se discuta, de aici si aciditatea criticilor mele..
Dar pentru ca ai facut un pas si ai pus o intrebarea directa si in tema, iti raspund: Ordinul nu are decat ocazional pozitii oficiale, fiind unul discret. Masoneria nu functioneaza asa cum probabil iti inchipui tu. Adica precum o institutie cu sarcini precise, activitati planificate, scopuri directe si cu "versiuni oficiale obligatorii". Initiativa lui Hess a utilizat numai caile Masoneriei nu si canoanele ei. Hess s-a dus ca un frate la un alt frate...cu o problema. S-a dus acolo unde stia ca va fi primit si ascultat..Asta a fost toata implicarea Ordinului..la asta s-a limitat, a deschis o cale alternativa...Asta face el mereu....

Ba nu...am fost mult mai inspirat alegandu-l pe Hess, pentru ca si ceilalti (din abis, din strafunduri, sau din ceruri) tot pe el l-au ales.
Interesant dar tot mai departe de subiect. Admit insa ca o disertatie din asta era necesara, macar pentru a sigila toate celelalte culoare pe care ar putea aluneca conversatia.
voi reveni....

Alo ! Chibitii ! Lasa-ti omu' sa-si exprime teoriile cu privire la Rudolf egipteanul , iar cui nu-i place sa discute dincolo despre Rudoplh, renul de Craciun ( vorba lui cocosel ).

Vezi ce simplu era? Din doua vorbe se rezolva.
Nu vorbi despre o problema, rezolv-o. Si ARE legatura cu subiectul!

Merci de raspuns.

L1

Sa cresti mare....Te mai asteptam. Sti, in topicuri din astea esti silit sa te informezi pentru a putea posta.
Toti facem la fel, iar la sfarsit, din ce a adus fiecare, plecam toti cu o imagine cat mai ampla si mai completa.


Daca am fi discutat aici despre motivatiile oculte ale nazistilor pentru declansarea ww2 sigur ca trebuia inceput din zona generalul Karl Haushofer.



Nu este adevarat.



..care, dupa cei mai multi exegeti, a facut si corecturile de rigoare, corecturi ce au afectat stilul, abordarea si structura lucrarii. Cu alte cuvinte Hess era indreptatit la o pozitie de coautor...

Revenind la o observatie cu Rudolf egipteanul (Set, Horus, Apophis, Ra*), toate conexiunile intre mitul lui Hristos in care o entitate supranaturala, Dumnezeu, trece prin trans sau consubstantiere intr-un om, apar fie ca speculatii pertinente, fie ca alternative posibile. Se pare ca pentru multe alte fiinte interesate de activitatile pamantenilor aceasta ar fi cea mai comuna cale de a se insinua printre ei.


*....."Schwarze Sonne" (Soarele Negru)...ring a bell ?

...chiar si asa Hess nu lasa multe alte posibilitati de interpretare pentru gestul sau in directia pacii. Daca judecam logic, ambele variante cu explicatii din domeniul rationalului nu se pot sustine..

1. Hess pleaca fara stinta Führerului...Atunci ce pace poate negocia el ??? In numele cui ??? Pe ce baze si de pe ce pozitii ???. Cum ar fi putut el sa onoreze oferta pe care o prezenta ??
2. Hess pleaca cu acordul sefului sau intr-o misiune precisa si secreta....tampenii, pentru ce sa fie secreta.???..de cine se temea Adolf ca sa aiba nevoie de secrete ??? De ce nu a optat el pentru o misiune discreta sub acoperire diplomatica, in loc sa il expuna pe emisarul sau riscului de a strabate spatii aeriene ostile si aparate ?




Cata determinare si mai ales ce motive il pot face pe un inalt demnitar al unei natiuni in ascensiune sa isi abandoneze postul, sa isi riste libertatea si viata intr-o astfel de incercare ??
Cat de plauzibile sunt afirmatiile lui legate de ocultism si de ezoterism privind justificarea gestului sau...A incercat Hess "sa faca pe nebunul" ?? A fost gaselnita serviciilor secrete pentru a evita alunecarea investigatiilor pe o panta cu prea multe necunoscute ?? a fost intr-adevar Hess substituit de un nebun adevarat, atat la proces cat si mai tarziu in detentia supravegheata de rusi ???

Urmeaza un serial in mai multe episoade despre date si adevaruri istorice...necesare oricarei speculatii:

Ok, desi am decis sa nu deranjez acest topic cu parerile mele, urmarind discutia despre subiectul HESS si sosiile sale m-am hotarat sa particip la aceasta discutie.
Pentru o analiza temenica, cum zic romanii, ar trebui sa incepem cu INCEPUTUL, orice fiinta de pe acest pamant are un INCEPUT si un SFARSIT. Hess este doar o parte din acest, film, eveniment, caz, stare, etc. Pentru mine, ceea ce a facut Hess nu este decat o actiune destinata de a produce o schimbare, o dezechilibrare a starii in care se afla umanitatea la acea vreme. Ce intelegem prin stare? in vreme in care Hess a incercat actiunea sa, intreaga umanitate avea un singur scop, distrugerea raului, reprezentat de nazisti, dar din nefericire raul este de multe ori dismulat.

Marduk, welcome aboard

Hai sa o spun altfel. Ma imaginez o entitate din afara sistemului terestru. Sunt interesat de evolutia planetei si de ce se intampla cu ea.
Am motive intemeiate pentru asta.
Constat ca obiectul meu de interes se indreapta spre un dezastru catastrofal: sa presupunem un razboi atomic devastator.
Caut sa intelg cauzele care au creat aceasta situatie si inteleg ca exista tensiuni interne imposibil de aplatizat. Ce fac ??

Un scenariu posibil este sa declansez un conflict mondial care sa detensioneze atmosfera si sa o descarce de incarcaturile ei distructive. Fac asta inainte ca omenirea sa aiba posibilitatea de a apela la arme atat de puternice, care in toiul confruntarii sa o poata distruge. Fac asta in chiar al doisprezecelea ceas, adica la momentul limita, dincolo de care exista pe piata armamentul nuclear.

Pentru asta manevrez un grup de idealisti, manipulez o situatie economica favorabila, incing spiritele unor lideri avizi de putere. Conflictul se naste si ia amploare. Totul decurge conform planului, atata doar ca unul dintre cei pe care i-am ales, un pion important si valoros, devine constient...El intelege ca distrugerea e aceiasi d.p.d.v.-ul omenirii si ca singurul castigator intre cele doua variante sunt eu. Chestia asta il revolta, cu atat mai mult cu cat el nu intrevede partea buna a planului, ori nu o poate intelege.

Ma banuieste in mod justificat de tradare si decide sa actioneze incercand o alianta mondiala care sa rejecteze ideea de razboi, mai degraba decat sa o faca terifianta asa cum ma gandisem eu. Nu zic ca e rau, dar e prea tarziu. Planul meu e deja in derulare si orice interventie de acest gen poate avea consecinte greu de prevazut...pentru ca, oi fi eu o entitate superioara, dar nu sunt nici pe departe una infailibila...imi place doar sa mi se stie de frica, insa in sinea mea am temerile mele fata de puterea rasei umane..

....cum am zis, un scenariu posibil...
.....ce-i drept de SF, dar posibil si mai usor de inghitit decat toate variantele reale puse pe tapet pana la acest moment in cazul Rudolf Hess...

Nu cred ca e cel mai intelept lucru sa incepi un conflict ca sa detensionezi atmosfera. O poti tensiona si mai tare cu un conflict. Nici nu poti controla un conflict ... etc.

scenariul tau sufera de 2 lacune:

1. acel conflict i-a impins pe participanti sa creeze armele nucleare, altfel ar fi ramas la stadiul de sf multa vreme.
2. nu a fost pace dupa ww2 si tensiunile distructive continua si in zilele noastre cu sau fara arme nucleare.

hess nu a fost trimis sa ceara pacea ci o impartire a sferelor de influenta intre germania si anglia. diferenta mare.

PS: ww2 nu s-a terminat pana la caderea zidului berlinului, comunismul a fost aproape la fel de distructiv ca si nazismul.

...iar comentariile tale numai sufera, pentru ca au decedat deja din urmatorele motive:

1. a murit din cauza ca este falsa: cercetarile in domeniul nuclear erau oricum angajate, conflictul facand numai ca ele sa fie accelerate si abordate pe mai multe planuri. In scrierile de specialitate se spune ca e rezultatul unor generatii de inventatori, un rol important avandu-l chiar albert einstein , pe un traseu ce incepe cu Demokrit si sfarsind cu James Chadwick
2. nu a existat dupa al doilea mondial vreun conflict comparabil macar cu un sferta din amploarea lui
3. Hess nu "a fost trimis"
4. Motivele vizitei lui sunt un mare mister pentru istoricii recunsocuti, asa ca presupunerile tale sunt superfluu (de prisos)
5 al dfoilea mondial s-a incheiat in 1945....harjoana de care zici tu e un cu totul alt conflict (alti beligeranti, alte aliante, alte motive) si s-a numit "razboiul rece"

Unde-i ingropat Hess ? Cine sunt urmasii lui ?

daca tu spui, nu pot decat sa ma inclin reverentios in fata detinatorului adevarului absolut.

oficial WW2 nu s-a incheiat inca, Japonia si URSS (Rusia) nu au semnat un tratat de pace, daca a fost razboi mondial inseamna ca el se termina atunci cand toate statele participante incheie tratate de pace, mai ales ca cele doua state au fost participanti importanti in acest conflict.

Intreg scenariu este prea simplu, sunt atat de multe variabile in joc incat nu ai putea sa le controlezi pe toate. O singura variabila ti-ar da peste cap intreg scenariul, NATURA UMANA, este foarte greu de controlat, desi multi zic sau au convingerea ca pot controla individul, parerea mea este ca mai usor controlezi masele decat indivizii. Cel mai siplu exemplu in acest sens este turma de oi, mai multe oi se pot controla mai usor, dar un singur berbec te poate da peste cap foarte usor. Desi imi place sa discut despre scenarii, conspiratii, etc. nu cred ca exista om sau grupuri de oameni care sa controleze starea in care ne aflam la un moment dat, poate ca incearca, fac tot felul de actiuni, locale sau internationale, sigur si clar exista aceste incercari dar odata ce depasesti un punct nu mai poti controla nimic oricat de tare si mare ai fi. Este posibil sa salvezi unele aparente, ceva, ceva, poate sa reuseasca acel grup de interese, sa apara ca este salvatorul unei situatii dar de fapt a jucat doar un rol nesemnificativ.

Si pozitia ta a fost consemnata. Detinatorul te asigura ca "adevarul absolut" in posesia caruia se afla...este o nebuloasa din care nu gaseste iesire.
El crede ca in niciun caz negand premizele sau datele problemei se poate identifica vreo varianta credibila, ci ca in felul asta doar cel mult, s-ar putea gasi o solutie onorabila de a te sustrage discutiei dupa ce ai esuat in abordarea ei.




Intotdeauna este asa....



Nu "l-ar da peste cap" ci l-ar sustine pana in cele mai mici detalii. Asta incerc sa spun acum, aici, ca ceea ce s-a intamplat cu Hess nu are explicatii rationale...
Ca intr-un fel sau in altul, declaratiile lui Hess se sustin si sustin un intreg scenariul; unul in care factorul uman sub forma de individ sau de gloata, nu are decat rolul de marioneta.

Daaaa, stiu cum suna...nu e nevoie de interventii din astea.

Asadar eu aduc in discutie un caz. Cineva vine si vorbeste despre cu totul alt subiect, iar apoi cand e tras de maneca zice: "apai daca aici nu se discuta si de altceva...eu PA"
Altul vine si intreaba: Hess ?? dar ce face ordinul masonic ?? cum are el control si ...alte alea....PA !
Altul vine si spune care Hess ???...care razboi ???... pentru ca apoi sa declare ca la el nu e niciun caz. El stie de ce a fost Hess la englezi..are toate rspunsurile si e plictisit de deranj..

Asa cum am spus: nu afirm nimic. Prezint in discutie niste teorii alternative (fanteziste, supranaturale, aberante) ca variante la teoriile oficiale (nu mai putin fanteziste, supranaturale, aberante).
Sigur mi-ar placea daca am putea avea o discutie la subiect...adevarat, in lipsa uneia, mai bine ne vedem de treaba fiecare...



Rudolf Hess

In curand cateva din declaratiile lui...

Acum declaratiile lui Hess:


"I said before that a certain incident in England caused me to think of the reports of the earlier trials. The reason was that the people around me during my imprisonment acted towards me in a peculiar and incomprehensible way, in a way which led me to conclude that these people somehow were acting in an abnormal state of mind. Some of them--these persons and people around me were changed from time to time. Some of the new ones who came to me in place of those who had been changed had strange eyes. They were glassy and like eyes in a dream. This symptom, however, lasted only a few days and then they made a completely normal impression. They could no longer be distinguished from normal human beings. Not only I alone noticed these strange eyes, but also the physician who attended me at the time, Dr. Johnston, a British Army doctor, a Scotsman.

In the spring of 1942 I had a visitor, a visitor who quite obviously tried to provoke me and acted towards me in a strange way. This visitor also had these strange eyes. Afterwards, Dr. Johnston asked me what I thought of this visitor. He told me--I told him I had the impression that for some reason or other he was not completely normal mentally, whereupon Dr. Johnston did not protest, as I had expected, but agreed with me and asked me whether I had not noticed those strange eyes, these eyes with a dreamy look. Dr. Johnston did not suspect that he himself had exactly the same eyes when he came to me. The essential point, however, is that in one of the reports of the time, which must still be in the press files on the proceedings--this was in Paris, about the Moscow trial--it said that the defendants had had strange eyes. They had had glazed and dreamy eyes! I have already said that I am convinced that the governments here concerned knew nothing of these happenings.

I swear by God the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth, that I shall leave out nothing and add nothing. I ask the High Tribunal, therefore, to consider everything which I shall say from now on as under oath. Concerning my oath, I should also like to say that I am not a churchgoer; I have no spiritual relationship with the Church, but I am a deeply religious person. I am convinced that my belief in God is stronger than that of most other people. I ask the High Tribunal to give all the more weight to everything which I declare under oath, expressly calling God as my witness. In the spring of 1942 ...


I was permitted to work for many years of my life under the greatest son whom my people has brought forth in its thousand year history. Even if I could, I would not want to erase this period of time from my existence. I am happy to know that I have done my duty, to my people, my duty as a German, as a National Socialist, as a loyal follower of my Fuehrer. I do not regret anything. If I were to begin all over again, I would act just as I have acted, even if I knew that in the end I should meet a fiery death at the stake. No matter what human beings may do, I shall some day stand before the judgment seat of the Eternal. I shall answer to Him, and I know He will judge me innocent."

Rudolf Hess a avut un fiu pe nume Wolf. Pana in ziua morti lui, Wolf a sustinut ca Hess a fost asasinat la Spandau pentru ca tatal sau sa nu faca publice date importante ce tineau de dosarele secrete ale razboiului.

Intr-o carte scrisa despre tatal sau Wolf spune:

"What really happened between June 1940 and May 10, 1941, the day my father took off in a Messerschmitt 110 to Scotland, is known only in outline because the relevant British documents still remain classified. The Hess papers that were released in Britain with great fanfare in June 1992 proved to be disappointing. Among these approximately two thousand pages was absolutely nothing of real substance about the secret contacts that existed between Britain and Germany, about the British peace group (which included members of the royal family) and its peace feelers to Germany, or about the role played by the British secret service prior to the flight. In short, these papers contained nothing that would show why my father seriously hoped that his mission might well turn out successfully.
One indication that Hess said more than is now known is contained in a note prepared on June 3, 1941, by Ralph Murray of the "Political Warfare Executive" -- a top secret British government agency -- for Sir Reginald Leeper, head of the secret service section of the Foreign Office. This document suggests that Secretary of State Cadogan also had a conversation with Rudolf Hess.
The purpose and context of this conversation still cannot be determined: The available information is still not complete. Nevertheless, it appears that during the course of this conversation the Deputy Führer was even more specific and detailed about his proposals than he was in some later conversations

After September 1941 my father was completely isolated. On June 25, 1942, he was transferred to Abergavenny in south Wales, where he was kept prisoner until he was flown to Nuremberg on October 8, 1945, to stand trial as a "major war criminal" and as the second-ranking defant in the so-called "International Military Tribunal."

After the release of Albert Speer and Baldur von Schirach on October 1, 1966, Rudolf Hess was the only remaining inmate. For more than twenty years, my father was the sole prisoner in a prison designed for about six hundred.."

"A Tunisian medical orderly, Abdallah Melaouhi, was a civilian employee of the Spandau prison administration at the time of my father's death. He is not a citizen of one of the four Allied occupation powers, nor, even more to the point, a member of their armed forces. As a result, he could not be silenced or transferred to some remote corner of the world like the others who were present at the scene of the crime.
After the death of my father, Melaouhi got in touch with our family. >From a note that my father wrote to him, it is clear that there was a relationship of personal trust between the two men. The core of Melaouhi's account, which he set down in an affidavit, is as follows:
When I arrived at the garden summerhouse, I found the scene looking as though a wrestling match had taken place. The ground was churned up and the chair on which Hess had usually sat lay on the ground a considerable distance from its usual location. Hess himself lay lifeless on the ground: He reacted to nothing, his respiration, pulse and heartbeat were no longer measurable. Jordan [an American guard] stood near Hess' feet and was obviously quite beside himself."

...pentru cei care au nimerit in mijlocul topicului si isi pun justificat intrebarea ce cauta acest subiect intr-o rubrica care analizeaza cazurile ce depasesc limita rationalului, reamintesc ca eu am adus aici in discutie o speculatie potrivit careia nici Rudolf Hess, nici Adolf Hitler, nu mai apartineau acestei lumi cu mult inainte de afirmarea lor sociala si politica.

Revenind la subiect:

Zborul lui Hess in Scotia are inca multe alte necunoscute decat cele despre care s-a vorbit. Unele varinate ce se bazeaza pe declaratiile mai multor martori oculari din suburbia Clarkson sustin ca avionul sau a aterizat perfect , pe un camp de langa Carnbooth House. Evenimentul ar fi generat imediat vizita igognito a mai multor oficialitati intre care Winston Churchill. O alta varianta ce e sustinuta de fotografii ce reprezinta epava aparatului de zbor a lui Hess ciuruita de gloante este dublata de declaratiile extrem de convingatoare ale fermierului David McLean ce pretinde ca la retinut pe Hess pentru a il preda politiei locale.

In treacat fie spus avionul lui Hess, un Messerschmitt Bf 110 avea nevoie de un echipaj de trei persoane pentru a putea fi manevrat in toate sistemele sale.

Richard Arnold-Baker (un aristocrat german pe numele adevarat Werner von Blumenthal) ofiter MI6 care l-a interogat pe Hess.

."...l-am intrebat daca harta lunii ce atarna pe unul din peretii celulei reprezinta interesul lui crescut pentru astronomie si mi-a raspuns dintr-o suflare ca acolo este locul de unde incepe totul. L-am intrebat ce ? si a raspuns la fel de rapid: viata si moartea..dupa care a parut ca regreta dialogul nostru. S-a intrerupt si a alunecat intr-o stare de contemplare profunda...n-am mai reusit sa continuam in aceea zi.."

Abdallah Melaouhi

"...starea sanatatii lui nu il ingrijora. Era convins ca este subiectul unui proces care o data ajuns la punctul de culme se va reversa..."


Richard Arnold-Baker

"On Monday afternoon the darkened mind of Hess passed some terrible crisis...All humanity left his face; it became an agonized muddle. He began to sway backward and forward on the seat with the regularity of a pendulum. His head swung forward almost to his knees. His skin became blue...He was taken away soon, but it was as if the doors of hell had swung ajar. It was apparent now, as on so many occasions during the trial, that the judges found it repulsive to try a man in such a state; but the majority of the psychiatrists consulted by the court had pronounced him sane."

edit: change of heart

in treacat fie spus, hess a zburat pe 10 mai 1941 cu Bf 110 C-4 (1940/1941) care avea nevoie de o echipa de 2 persoane nu de 3 ca in versiunea mai tarzie Bf 110 G-4 (1943–1945) - Nachtjager.

Spus cu pauza...adica nu doar in treacat: ideea era ca Hess a plecat de unul singur cu un avion care necesita un echipaj fie de 3, fie de 2 membrii, pentru a fi pilotat.
Spus in treacat, cel de al treilea membru al echipajului unui Bf 110 G-4 (1943–1945) se ocupa exclusiv cu armamentul...fiind optional intr-un zbor ce nu avea ca scop vreo agresiune..

Dupa moartea sa mai multe necropsii, cu rezultate contradictorii, au fost efectuate. Expertizele fusesera cerute de familie care nu credea in varianta unei sinucideri.
Cateva marturii razlete confirma ca Hess isi imbunatatea starea sanatatii cu fiecare zi. Ele au alimentat speculatiile pe marginea procesului de raintinerire pe care Hess il anuntase.
Desi regula spunea ca toti condamnatii de la Spandau sa fie incinerati, iar cenusa risipita, Hess a fost returnat familiei care l-a ingropat in final.

Trupul inmormantat avea insa lipsa cateva piese anatomice importante precum creierul.
Daca punem la socoteala ca acest organ nu a fost recuperat nici in cazul lui Adolf mai adaugam astfel inca doua argumente la teoria transubstantierii...

orice avion (de pe aceasta planeta) are nevoie de un singur pilot pentru a fi pilotat. al doilea membru in echipaj era mitraliorul din spate.

G-4 (care a aparut dupa ce Hess baga deja parnaie in anglia) avea nevoie de un al treilea om pentru ca era vanator de noapte.

...very clever ...exista o lista lunga de aparate ce nu pot fi pilotate de un singur om...Insa ti-as face jocul...al tau si al celorlati ce nu sunt in stare sa poarte o discutie concreta despre ceva si in lipsa de argumente conduc totul catre subiecte colaterale... Un gand ma bantuie chiar acum cand scriu: esti cumva parte din conspiratie ???

nu ma indoiesc ca tu numai asta intelegi cand cineva iti argumenteaza ca ai gresit in ipoteza ta ca avionul avea nevoie de 3 oameni pentru a fi pilotat. ai dat-o in bara si cu tipul avionului si cu cati oameni era nevoie de chilotat. ca urmare teoria prinde la gigei de genul " oaidi bah facura nemtii avionu' care avea nevoie de 3 chiloti clar conspiratie".

exista un termen pentru aia care se supara pe cei care le atrag atentia ca gresesc, si da, ei sunt parte din conspiratie, ba chiar in fruntea ei cu idei fixe

...dupa cum exista o sumedenie de termeni pentru cei ce nu pot participa la o discutie egala, corecta si coerenta..ma jenez sa ii reproduc aici.



"From The Case of Rudolf Hess by J. R. Rees: The reactions of Hess's fellow defendants to the above statement are noted: Goering was amazed and upset, and while he enjoyed the frustration of the Court, demonstrated considerable resentment that he had been so completely fooled. Von Schirach felt that such behavior was not the action of a normal man, and while he enjoyed Hess's jest upon the world, felt that it was not a gesture expected of a good German whose position was as important as that of Hess.

Ribbentrop, upon learning the news, was dumbfounded, and was hardly able to speak when told Hess's statement, and merely kept repeating: "Hess, you mean Hess? The Hess we have here? He said that?" Ribbentrop became quite agitated and seemed to feel such action was not possible. He stated: "But Hess did not know me. I looked at him. I talked to him. Obviously he did not know me. It is just not possible. Nobody could fool me like that." Streicher's comment, as usual, was direct and blunt: "If you ask me, I think Hess's behavior was a shame. It reflects on the dignity of the German people."

Va rog sa urmariti cu atentie tot ce urmeaza...

Rudolf Hess a fost diagnosticat oficial ca “hypochondriac neurotic”, o evaluare profund si esential contestata azi de cei mai mult medici de renume, dar ca sa intelegem mai bine sa urmarim urmatoarea poveste:

"Hitler, the SS, and the Occult

Something most people don’t know about and many shirk away from is that the Nazi movement represented more than just the most wicked act done to mankind in recent times. The Nazi movement represented something far more insidious than the insidious. Hitler’s movement was powered by the occult. There were different projects and departments to help win the war. Many of us know that Hitler was attempting to build the atom bomb and several think he succeeded. Recently popular culture has started to step on the idea of the Nazis’ involvement with the dark arts.

What truth is there to these fantastic claims though? The term S.S. was traditionally thought to be Schutzstaffel, meaning special military. To those in the know it actually meant Schwarze Sonne or The Black Sun. In the occult theory of the nazis there were two suns, one the light sun or our real sun and the other a black sun. This black sun could bring about enlightenment and certain spiritual powers. The S.S. spent a great amount of time studying an practicing the dark arts to win the war. Adolf Josef Lanz was the founder of the New Templars. It was the belief of the New Templars that Eve had consummated with a demon before adam and gave birth to to the darker races. Thus the goal of the Nazis to bring about the Aryan Race. Hitler was the medium to the darker powers that the nazis channeled, it is said when he spoke his voice was hypnotizing and when he was done he often appeared exhausted."

"If our readers have ever read anything on channeling or medium ship they will know that one of the draw backs to channeling is the subject is exhausted when they are done. Hitler even had believed that if he could possess the Staff of Longinus or spear of destiny that he would be unstoppable. He devoted much of his time to finding it. This and many other subjects were presumed to be the act of the SS. The commander of the S.S. Heinrich Himmler helped bring the SS towards more esoteric pursuits.

The S.S. tried to not only harness natural powers but Super Natural powers. They even utilized the dark rituals found in the lesser key of solomon. All of this it would seem was to no avail. The nazi party fell, and was destroyed. The experiments that occurred there still remain shrouded in mystery to many of us. With such a dark air surrounding it, and all manners of atrocities that took place is it foolish to believe that the nazis did practice the dark arts? The real questions remain though. What happened to all this dark knowledge and what are the consequences of it?

I learned the remarkable story of how, at a pivotal moment during World War II, one of the highest-ranking Nazi officials seemingly defected from Germany by flying solo in the dark of night to Scotland. Having run out of fuel, he was forced to bail out of his plane before reaching his intended destination – a private landing strip at Dungavel House. There he proposed to meet with the Duke of Hamilton, allegedly to discuss a secret peace treaty with Great Britain.

Rudolf Hess parachuted from his Messerschmitt fighter around 11 p.m. over Renfrewshire, Scotland, touching down at Floors farm near Eaglesham, south of Glasgow, about 10 miles or so froHamiltonâ??s estate in southern Lanarkshire. Breaking his ankle on impact, Hess was apprehended by David McLean, a local farmer armed with a pitchfork, who had seen the plane go down and took its only occupant by surprise while he was struggling to disengage his parachute harness."

"As if these events were not already incredible enough, I was later told in a hushed conversation that the legend of Rudolf Hess mission was not the whole story. There was far more to the extraordinary affair, though the informant who revealed this to me was somewhat reluctant to go into details about the specific nature of Hess business with the Duke. He quietly told me that Hess had not come to the bargaining table empty-handed.

It seems that the former deputy-Furhrer had brought with him what amounted to a national treasure in hopes of sweetening the deal. Listening intently as he spun his yarn, I learned that the supposed treasure was actually a book. No ordinary book, mind you, but a very old book. It was, as it turned out, a manuscript of ancient Gaelic mystical lore. I only got a wee glance at it, Paterson admitted, but it was right queer, like a book of spells of some sort.

At first I gave little credit to what the old gentleman was saying; but as his story progressed, the details he revealed made the tale more and more convincing. Intrigued by his account, I began searching through old newspaper reports and on the internet for more information about the mysterious volume Hess had turned over to British officials; but nowhere in any of the articles that I came across was there the least mention of this supposedly ancient document.

....related to her the story of how Mr. Paterson had told me about it during my recent trip to Scotland, and that I was quite intrigued over his tale and wanted to find out if there was any truth to it. There is, I'm not so sure that i's something that you ought to go digging up. Some things are just better left alone.

...The package finally arrived on Thursday afternoon. I opened the large yellow envelope and pulled out a stack of several dozen photocopies of a typewritten text in what appeared to be German. There was no note with it, only the Xerox copies. Unable to read German, I flipped through them disappointedly until I noticed the heading which read: Abschrift vom Irischen Druidenbuch."

..cu mentiunea ca Peterson era un apropiat al ducelui de Hemilton, iar Evelyn o persoana din anturajul grupului care se ocupa cu decriptarea mesajelor din timpul ww2, dar si cu traducerile din limbile vechi; si cu precizarea ca existenta reala a acestor personaje e total nesemnificativa in aceasta poveste, pentru care doar existenta documentului si circuitul parcurs de el de la fabricare si pana la Hess e importanta.

"Druidenbuch, Druid,s book ? I puzzled over the title. Was this in some way related to the manuscript Hess had been carrying? Immediately I picked up the phone and called Evelyn back. I have the papers that you sent me, but what exactly are they I asked. She told me that the copies she sent were of a text that her husband, along with a team of other researchers, had been given orders to translate from its original language into German. The copies came from a transcription of the manuscript which he kept in a personal journal that he was somehow able to retain throughout his capture and confinement, keeping it after his subsequent release.

Evelyn said that even after their marriage her husband had continued to work on the text, staying up late into the night typing it out. He told her that the translation was of an ancient religious tract predating Christianity. In a later telephone conversation Evelyn revealed that her husband Henry was interested in being of assistance in efforts to negotiate Rudolf Hess release from prison following the parole of Albert Speer and Baldur von Schirach in 1966.

Attributed to the 8th century B.C. Irish king Ollamh Fodhla who (being the recipient of a vast dispensation of esoteric knowledge through a messenger of the ancient Celtic pagan deities) recorded the teachings that had been imparted to him in ogham text on a set of wooden tablets which he later instructed his son, Caibre, to inter alongside his body at the time of his death. These same ogham tablets were later supposedly discovered and translated in the 3rd century A.D. by the Druid Mogh Ruith as the Lebor Feasa Rùnda, a text which had been preserved in manuscript form, carefully transcribed along with other scriptures by monks of the early Christian Church in Ireland, as a treatise on the magical arts known as the... Black Book of Loughcrew. "

"This would seem to contradict the commonly held misconception that the Druids forbid their teachings to be committed to writing, a falsehood generally attributed to a statement made by Julius Caesar in his Gallic Wars. In this Caesar relates that students of the Druidic schools were expected to commit to memory a great number verses in their course of training which lasted up to twenty years. Ancient Irish sources such as the Leabhar Buidhe Lecain, or Yellow Book of Lecan, clearly state that prior to the Christian Era a vast amount of Druidic writings once existed, such as the 180 Druidic texts burned by St. Patrick during his career as a missionary to Ireland. Fortunately the later monks who followed in Patrick's wake were not as fervently opposed to the indigenous culture and many sought to preserve the remnants of knowledge originating in the pagan past.

Early on, the Book of Loughcrew was apparently among the texts brought to England by Hiberno-Scottish missionaries from Ireland when they re-established a monastery amid the ruins of Glastonbury abbey. By the first half of the 10thcentury A.D. the book had evidently come into the possession Dunstan, abbot of Glastonbury, who was later appointed Archbishop of Canterbury and was formally canonized as a saint in 1029 A.D; despite the fact that earlier in his career he had been expelled from the court of King Athelstan as a practitioner of sorcery and black magic.

In the decades that followed the text of the Lebor Feasa Randa may have circulated among the Knights Templars who could have easily adapted its rituals under the guise of a pseudo-biblical attribution to conceal its pagan origin, perhaps inspiring medieval works on magic such as the Key of Solomon.

Legends alluding to the Templars quest for relics such as the Holy Grail hint at parallels drawn from Celtic mythology in which sacred vessels possessing miraculous attributes feature prominently. Among the allegations brought against the Templars that led to the destruction of their order in the early 1300s were accusations of their involvement with occult rites and the practice of magic; although rumors suggest that a surviving band of Templars, led by William Sinclair, escaped persecution by fleeing to Scotland. There, under the protection of the excommunicated King Robert the Bruce, their order is said to have continued in secrecy; supposedly leading to the formation of the fraternal order of Freemasons."

....paralela dintre fuga lui Hess si cea a formatorului Ritului Egiptean Antic si Acceptat al Ordinului Masonic...amandoua orientate catre Scotia, amandoua avand legaturi cu egiptul...egiptul lui Hess, al soarelui (Ra), ar putea fi simple coincidente....dar:


"By the 13th century A.D. the Black Book of Loughcrew had purportedly fallen into the hands of Michael Scott, a famed Scottish occultist whose reputation as a sorcerer had earned him the nickname of "the Wizard of the North." Scott, who was born in 1175 A.D. had studied at Durham and Oxford before going abroad to further his education in Paris, where he studied theology and was eventually ordained as a priest. Pope Honorius III (said to be practioner of the dark arts and attributed as the author of more than one book on black magic) had written to Cardinal Langton, the Archbishop of Canterbury, in 1224 for the purpose of obtaining an English benefice for Scott, but he declined that appointment choosing instead to travel to Bologna, Italy, and later to Toledo, Spain, in order to continue his studies.

Following Scott's death in 1232, the book containing the only surviving copy of the Lebor Feasa R'nda was evidently acquired by the Franciscan Friar, Roger Bacon, whose scholarly interest in the occult accounts for the authorship of at least one Medieval textbook on magic, De Nigromancia, being attributed to him. With Bacon's death in 1294 the Black Book of Loughcrew changed hands several times, allegedly finding its way into the possession of such noteworthy personages as Henry Cornelius Agrippa and Georg Sabel (alias Johannes Faustus) before ending up in the library of a practicing physician and Catholic priest named Sir Robert of Drayton in Somerset, England.

Sir Robert apparently bequeathed the book to his former apprentice, John Walsh of Dorset, who was arrested in 1565 and examined the following year on charges of sorcery and witchcraft. The book was confiscated by the arresting constable, Robert Baber of Crewkerne, and eventually found its way into the possession of one John Husey of Blokley who later passed it on to a certain acquaintance of his by the name of Edward Talbot (alias Edward Kelly). From there the book fell into the hands of the famed Elizabethan magus, Dr. John Dee, who employed Kelly as a crystal-gazer and medium. Dee's experiments with the occult seem to have been partly influenced by its teachings."

"It is unclear beyond this point as to what became of the book, as Dee and Kelly went abroad to Europe for several years seeking the patronage of continental nobility, but in 1589 Dee went back to England leaving Kelly behind. When Dee returned to his estate at Mortlake after an absence of six years he found that his considerable library had been ransacked and many of his rare books and instruments had been stolen.

Kelly, who had taken up residence in the Bohemian town of Trebon, remained in Central Europe under the patronage of Count Vilem Rozmberk, who supported Kelly's alchemical experiments. Achieving considerable notoriety, Kelly was even honored by Emperor Rudolph II, who granted him the title of â??Baron of the Kingdom, but Kellys rise to eminence was short-lived and he was arrested and imprisoned on more than one occasion due to his failed experiments in creating gold. Kelly died in 1597 at the age of forty-two, allegedly succumbing to injuries received while attempting to escape from a tower in which Rudolph held him prisoner.

The manuscript containing the Lebor Feasa Randa eventually resurfaced for a brief time in the 18th century when it was said to have circulated as a literary curiosity among such notable personages as Giuseppe Balsamo (a.k.a. Count Alessandro di Cagliostro), Adam Weishaupt, founder of the Bavarian Illumanati, and Sir Francis Dashwood, a friend of Weishaupts and organizer of Londons infamous Hellfire Club.

At some point in the late 19th century, the Black Book of Loughcrew passed between the hands of Austrian mystic Guido von List, and Carl Kneller, a wealthy German industrialist and Freemason who, together with Theodor Reuss, went on to found a secret society known as the Ordo Templi Orientis, or O.T.O., prior to his death in 1905. From that point the book came into the possession of Rudolf von Sebottendorff, a member of the List-inspired secret society known as the Germanenorden, who in collaboration with Walter Nauhaus, founded an occult study group called the Thule Gesellschaft. The disciples of this vkisch esoteric organization saw evidence for an Atlantean origin of the Aryan race in the lore contained within the Lebor Feasa Rùnda, specifically in the legends relating to the ancient gods of the pagan Celts having come from a mysterious island in the North Atlantic, bringing with them the four hallowed treasures of the Tuatha Danann. "

"The fact that the Lebor Feasa Runda (Book of Secret Knowledge) apparently corroborated with the Thule doctrine of Aryan racial origins led to Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler ordering its siezure by the S.S. following Adolf Hitler's rise to power. Nazi ideology sought to equate the legendary Celtic treasures with long-lost relics of antiquity such as the Holy Grail, the Spear of Destiny and the Stone of Scone, all of which were ear-marked by Himmler for an official scavenger hunt carried out by the S.S. The ancient manuscript even inspired neo-pagan Nazi rituals such as the one in which a huge Celtic-style cauldron fashioned from 24 pounds of solid gold was cast into the Bavarian lake of Chiemsee as a votive offering during a ceremony performed to secure Nazi victory through propitiating the ancestral gods.

The fabled Black Book of Loughcrew was inexplicably returned to Britain by Rudolf Hess under mysterious circumstances on May 10, 1941, eventually ending up in the hands of the Occult Division of Britains MI5 Intelligence Service. Hess, a long-time member of the Thule Gesellschaft, had flown to Scotland and parachuted from his plane ostensibly under the pretext of meeting the Duke of Hamilton with the intention of negotiating a secret peace treaty that would insure German dominance in Europe and a reinforcement of the British Empire among its commonwealth states.

This escapade occurred not long after a covert military assignment code-named Operation Mistletoes is said to have been carried out in within the ranks of British Intelligence in 1940. This plot allegedly involved mysterious occult rituals taking place at Ashdown Forest in Sussex, England; purportedly attended by such notable figures as Ian Fleming and Aleister Crowley (who by 1923 had succeeded Theodor Reuss as head of the Ordo Templi Orientis). Interestingly, two German S.S. officers designated as Kestral and Sea Eagle were also supposedly present at these ceremonies. Whatever the case may be, the book that Rudolf Hess brought with him to Scotland has remained in the hands of the British government ever since.

Hess was taken into custody shortly after his descent into Scotland and briefly detained at Maryhill Barracks in Glasgow before being transferred to Buchanan Castle near Drymen. From there he was sent by rail to England, at the insistance of Prime Minister Winston Churchill, who rejected Hess peace negotiations and had him placed in the Tower of London from May 17 â?? 21, 1941; the last prisoner ever held there. Hess spent the next thirteen months under close guard at Mytchett Place, Camp Z, near Aldershot in Surrey, England; while there he reportedly attempted suicide by throwing himself off a balcony on June 15, 1941. On June 26, 1942 Hess was sent to Maindiff Court Hospital near Aberavenny, Wales, where he was confined for the remainder of the war. "

Among the individuals brought in to interrogate him was naval intelligence officer Ian Fleming who suggested that noted occultist Aleister Crowley be allowed to interview Hess regarding the more esoteric aspects of his mission. The higher ranking officials in charge of the case would not permit it however. Within a few days of Hessâ?? arrival in Scotland, Hitlerâ??s Riech Minister, Joseph Gobbels, issued “an order against occultism, clairvoyancy, etc.” on May 15, 1941, writing in his diary, “This obscure rubbish will now be eliminated once and for all. The miracle men, Hess’ darlings, will now be put under lock and key. “

Interestingly, Winston Churchill, the main proponent for Britain continuing the war against Germany, was himself a member of more than one esoteric fraternity, having been initiated to the Freemasons in the degree of Entered Apprentice at Londons Studholme Lodge in 1901. He later advanced through the Fellow Craft degree to the rank of Master Mason in March 1902 at Rosemary
Lodge. By August 1908 Churchill had been initiated in the Albion Lodge of the Ancient Order of Druids in a ceremony which took place at Blenheim Palace, his family estate.

According to physicians assigned to evaluate his mental condition Hess reportedly stated that his flight came about as the result of having received spiritual messages from the gods revealing that he was the chosen one ordained to bring about a new era of world peace. Diagnosed as being mentally unstable, having a psychopathic personality, and suffering from hysterical amnesia, Hess was spared the death penalty in his post-war trial at Nuremburg, receiving a life sentence and confined at Spandau Prison. There he would remain for the next 41 years until his death in 1987 at the age of ninety-three, the prisons sole inmate.

The contents of the Black Book of Loughcrew were photographed by the S.S. in the years prior to its return and placed on microfilm which was later recovered by U.S. troops in the summer of 1945 following the fall of the Third Reich. This microfilm copy was turned over to the U.S. Office of Strategic Services and is currently in the possession of the Central Intelligence Agency. The materials confiscated from Hess by British military intelligence shortly after his arrival in Scotland in May 1941 were kept in a sealed file which was supposed to remain unopened until 2017, but when the seal was broken in 1991-92, it was found that the contents of the file had already been removed and were missing. Given the seemingly incredible history of this single volume of Celtic mystical literature, it is remarkable that it survived at all.

The Lebor Feasa Runda, or "Book of Secret Knowledge" may be counted among a very select group of religious documents which claim to have been divinely revealed to humanity through supernatural means. Never intended for general circulation, this rarely seen scripture is an exposition of the Druidic faith, long held in secret and never before published in its entirety, although fragments of its text have appeared in numerous other manuscripts over the centuries in varying degrees of similarity to the versions presented in this scripture. The history, legends, myths, religious doctrine, philosophical concepts, and magical teachings contained in this work represent the most comprehensive and authentic collection of ancient Celtic beliefs and practices known to date.