E, ca tu ai sarit imediat cu exemplele din Biblie, acum o asteptam si pe protejata ta sa ne raspunda ce zice Coranul in aceasta privinta ! Adica a omorarii unei fiinte umane in numele lui Allah !

Dar nu este cumva ingamfare din partea cuiva, sa se creada in masura de a pune in practica aceasta pedeapsa, si automat un pacat? Cred ca este totusi o invalidare, fie ea si indirecta...

Sunt convins ca asemenea "invalidari" se gasesc si in Coran...

Nu o apar aici nici pe Allibem, nici Islamul. Sunt convins ca gasesti oameni de treaba de religie musulmana, asa cum gasesti si de religie crestina. Mi se pare insa deplasata agresivitatea ironica cu care a fost intampinata pe aici de catre unii inca inainte de a spune mare lucru.

Acest topic a fost editat de abis: 27 Apr 2005, 12:41 PM

abis, atat timp cat esti ateu declarat, o sa te rog sa te abtii de la interpretari aberante ale Bibliei pe care sa le proiectezi asupra crestinilor. Mie unul imi amintesc de orele de reeducare politica tinute de securisti. Fara suparare... este doar o rugaminte.

Ceea ce ai scris tu mai sus ar avea sens daca macar vreuna dintre gruparile crestine de astazi ar omori pe cineva pentru adulter. Dar nici macar vreuna nu face asa ceva.

Scrisese mai sus Carpatic ceva despre lege si interpretarea legii. Credeam ca s-a inteles destul de clar: nimeni nu ataca Coranul sau Islamul aici. M-am straduit sa sterg de-a lungul timpului mesajele de acest gen. Musulmanii din Romania sunt moderati bine de tot, si personal am putut vorbi si lucra impreuna cu musulmani fara nici cea mai mica problema.

Dar este atacat fundamentalismul islamic, cel care da o interpretare extremista Coranului. Care aduce un vant de Ev Mediu in secolul XXI. Si care o face cu multa varsare de sange.

Da, putem argumenta ca spre deosebire de crestinatate si chiar de evrei, pentru care mai este valabil textul citat din Biblie, mare parte din tarile islamice se guverneaza dupa o aplicare stricta si dura a Coranului. Dar daca putem admite oarecum dreptul lor la o cultura specifica, nu putem admite propagarea acestui spirit la noi in ograda. Pentru ca incalca drepturile omului si legile tarii.

Orice text religios este interpretabil pe mai multe niveluri. Omorirea la care faci tu referire este in bisericile crestine una spirituala - unele excomunica pacatosii cu voia. Nimeni nu se mai gandeste macar la vreo pedeapsa fizica. Este o pedeapsa spirituala, care este in acord cu spiritul Bibliei.

Dimpotriva, ceea ce vor fundamentalistii islamici este obligarea tarilor europene la admiterea acestor interpretari literale ale Coranului, asa cum au vazut la ei acasa. Tocmai de aceea am pus intrebarea catre musulmanii prezenti pe forum: sunteti sau nu de acord cu executarea fizica a cuiva pentru ca a profanat Coranul?

Ca sa fiu mai bine inteles: avem multe de invatat despre Islam. Dar nu cred ca avem ce comunica cu cei dispusi sa admita crime in numele unei religii.*


*si asta nu inseamna ca transformam subiectul intr-unul politic. Sunt si destui "crestini" fundamentalisti ajunsi in pozitii de putere care cred ca misiunea lor este sa elimine fizic populatii intregi pentru scopurile lor egoiste. Nu cunosc vreo biserica dispusa sa-i accepte doctrinal insa, ceea ce nu regasesc in extremele Islamului, unde abunda gruparile violente si sangeroase.


Va rog pe toti sa pastrati discutia la un nivel prietenos si la subiect. Nu judecam Islamul aici, ci doar o interpretare a lui. Indraznesc sa spun: falsa.

No comment

march, ar fi de ras daca n-ar fi de plans. Astfel de ore aveau loc la Pitesti, Aiud, si altele.

Se interpreta Biblia conform manualului sovietic - mai ce teologi buni erau tovarasii astia! - doar-doar or prinde credinciosii in offsaid si le-or distruge credinta... De fapt asta era singurul lor scop...

Ca unul care a avut destule rude chinuite ani de zile in aceste inchisori si lagare, sunt mai acid in aceasta privinta. Imi cer scuze anticipat, dar este o buba dureroasa pentru mine.

Eu credeam ca pe topicul asta incerca sa aflam mai multe despre o religie pe care cei mai multi nu o cunoastem deloc, nu ca incercam sa o judecam.

Daca vei manifesta aceeasi severitate fata de mesaje ca cel de aici, promit ca nu mai intru pe topicul asta decat ca sa citesc!

Asta ar fi ideea si ar fi ideal sa ne mentinem in linia acestei idei, nu sa iscam dispute dure si sa aruncam acuze.
Musulmanii nostri, Allibem si Mundus, sunt si ei inca in faza de invatare. Eu indraznesc sa spun (si sa le spun) ca invatarea pe care ei sunt obligati sa o parcurga nu trebuie sa se rezume doar la discutiile cu imamii locali (din Romania, respectiv Franta) si la materialele (eventual traduse in romana) de propaganda pe care le gasesc in moscheile de pe-aici sau din Occident. Calatoria in tari islamice, discutia cu clericii de acolo si cu populatia pe tema Islamului i-ar ajuta enorm, pe de alta parte sunt studii accesebile (cu mai mult sau mai putin efort), publicate in occident, pe 2 linii: studii de filozofie/religie sau de religie comparata (atentie ! sunt si multe care vehiculeaza idei denaturate) ale occidentalilor, dar si exegeze ale Coranului si Shariei scrise de invatati islamici moderni.
Aceleasi lucruri ne-ar fi necesare si noua, cei care vrem sa stim si sa intelegem mai multe despre Islam, din exterior.

Mashallah ! Sorine !
Ce arabiteala e pe limba ta !

Da de ce March sa ma uit peste umar ? Esti in spate ? Nu vrei umar la umar ?

Si ai dreptate.

Am decis ca deocamdata sa nu sterg nici unul dintre mesajele care pastreaza macar o aparenta de bun simt, pentru ca discutiile aprinse nu inseamna neaparat si dusmanii personale. Am editat un pic mesajul lui Sorin, asa cum spusesem deja de ieri.

Nu e vorba de judecarea islamului aici. Cat am putut am dus discutiile spre diferentieri clare intre Islam si fundamentalism.
Dar in fata citatului din Coran dat de allibem ca raspuns la istorisirea uciderii publice a acelui nefericit, cred ca reactia noastra era oarecum normala. Caci nu e vorba de istorii vechi de mii de ani, e vorba de evenimente actuale.
A cita texte din Coran ca justificare a unei ucideri actuale tine de fundamentalism, si nu de islamul pe care il poate regasi oricine asa cum a scris si carpatic mai sus.

In momentul in care trei romani + 1 sunt pe cale de a fi ucisi de astfel de indivizi, imi pare rau dar toleranta fata de atitudinea fundamentalist islamica tinde spre zero.

Aveti cu totii libertate de exprimare pe acest forum - dar va rog inca o data sa o folositi responsabil. Cu asta sper sa nu mai intervin aici, doream doar un raspuns la intrebarea mea de mai devreme si atat.

1,61...
Desigur, vorba lui Bula : " As plange dar nu pot de ras ". Eu nu radeam acolo de esenta acelor cuvinte subliniate , ci de faptul ca au fost plasate la tanc !

Ii rog pe cei ce discuta aici sa incerce sa mentina o limita a discutiei. Va rog sa incetati cu tot felul de ofense stupide. Topicul a fost deschis pentru a-i ajuta pe cei ce stiu foarte putine, sau chiar nimic, despre islam sa afle cate ceva despre aceasta religie.

Cat despre romanii prizonieri in Irak nu stiu exact ce anume faceau ei acolo (eu unul ca jurnalist occidental nu as risca sa stau nici macar 5 minute in zona rosie, intr-o tara dominata de haos si in care misuna la tot coltul tot felul de banditi, la care se mai adauga soldatii aliantei sau mujahedinii din rezistenta) deci nu pot spune daca sunt retinuti acolo pe drept sau pe nedrept(mujahedinii nu au voie sa ucida o persoana care nu a luat parte la lupta). Apoi ma indoiesc sincer ca acei indivizi care i-au rapit lupta cu adevarat pe calea lui Allah atat timp cat ucid o femeie, stiut fiind faptul ca profetul Muhammad (pacea lui Allah fie asupra sa) a interzis cu desavarsire asa ceva.

Acest topic a fost editat de Mundus: 27 Apr 2005, 04:52 PM

Ii rog pe unii participanti la acest topic sa inceteze cu tot felul de chestii de genul: "am auzit eu ca nu-stiu-cine a omorat pe nu stiu cine... si ca musulmanii sunt toti niste fanatici" sau "am vizitat o tara islamica si mi s-a parut ca asa si asa... asa incat mi-am facut deja o parare si le stiu pe toate" etc. In felul asta dicutia se transforma dintr-una constructiva in tot felul de discutii aberante offtopic"

Iata acum ceva in limba engleza scris de dr. Zakir Naik referitor la ceea ce inseamna femeia in islam:

"1. POLYGAMY

Question:
Why is a man allowed to have more than one wife in Islam? i.e. why is polygamy allowed in Islam?
Answer:

1. Definition of Polygamy
Polygamy means a system of marriage whereby one person has more than one spouse. Polygamy can be of two types. One is polygyny where a man marries more than one woman, and the other is polyandry, where a woman marries more than one man. In Islam, limited polygyny is permitted; whereas polyandry is completely prohibited.

Now coming to the original question, why is a man allowed to have more than one wife?

2. The Qur’an is the only religious scripture in the world that says,"marry only one".
The Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the phrase ‘marry only one’. There is no other religious book that instructs men to have only one wife. In none of the other religious scriptures, whether it be the Vedas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Geeta, the Talmud or the Bible does one find a restriction on the number of wives. According to these scriptures one can marry as many as one wishes. It was only later, that the Hindu priests and the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one.
Many Hindu religious personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple wives. King Dashrat, the father of Rama, had more than one wife. Krishna had several wives.
In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished, since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives. It was only a few centuries ago that the Church restricted the number of wives to one.
Polygyny is permitted in Judaism. According to Talmudic law, Abraham had three wives, and Solomon had hundreds of wives. The practice of polygyny continued till Rabbi Gershom ben Yehudah (960 C.E to 1030 C.E) issued an edict against it. The Jewish Sephardic communities living in Muslim countries continued the practice till as late as 1950, until an Act of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel extended the ban on marrying more than one wife.

3. Hindus are more polygynous than Muslims
The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that the percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961 was 5.06% among the Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims. According to Indian law only Muslim men are permitted to have more than one wife. It is illegal for any non-Muslim in India to have more than one wife. Despite it being illegal, Hindus have more multiple wives as compared to Muslims. Earlier, there was no restriction even on Hindu men with respect to the number of wives allowed. It was only in 1954, when the Hindu Marriage Act was passed that it became illegal for a Hindu to have more than one wife. At present it is the Indian Law that restricts a Hindu man from having more than one wife and not the Hindu scriptures.
Let us now analyse why Islam allows a man to have more than one wife.

4. Qur’an permits limited polygyny
As I mentioned earlier, Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an:
"Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one."
[Al-Qur’an 4:3]
Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them.
In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says:
"Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women...." [Al-Qur’an 4:129]
Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife.
Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Don’ts:
i. ‘Fard’ i.e. compulsory or obligatory
ii. ‘Mustahab’ i.e. recommended or encouraged
iii. ‘Mubah’ i.e. permissible or allowed
iv. ‘Makruh’ i.e. not recommended or discouraged
v. ‘Haraam’ i.e. prohibited or forbidden
Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as compared to a Muslim who has only one wife.

5. Average life span of females is more than that of males
By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. A female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, during the pediatric age itself there are more deaths among males as compared to the females.
During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the world than widowers.

6. India has more male population than female due to female foeticide and infanticide
India is one of the few countries, along with the other neighbouring countries, in which the female population is less than the male population. The reason lies in the high rate of female infanticide in India, and the fact that more than one million female foetuses are aborted every year in this country, after they are identified as females. If this evil practice is stopped, then India too will have more females as compared to males.

7. World female population is more than male population
In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.

8. Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not practical
Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million females in U.S.A who would not be able to get husbands (considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more than four million females in Great Britain, 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband.
Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes public property. There is no other option. All those who are modest will opt for the first.
In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one wife, in which women retain their honourable, dignified position in society and lead a protected life.
Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to marry a married man or to become public property. Islam prefers giving women the honourable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the second.
There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygyny, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women.

2. POLYANDRY

Question:
If a man is allowed to have more than one wife, then why does Islam prohibit a woman from having more than one husband?
Answer:
A lot of people, including some Muslims, question the logic of allowing Muslim men to have more than one spouse while denying the same ‘right’ to women.
Let me first state emphatically, that the foundation of an Islamic society is justice and equity. Allah has created men and women as equal, but with different capabilities and different responsibilities. Men and women are different, physiologically and psychologically. Their roles and responsibilities are different. Men and women are equal in Islam, but not identical.
Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verses 22 to 24 gives the list of women with who you can not marry and it is further mentions in Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verse 24 "Also (prohibited are) women already married"
The following points enumerate the reasons why polyandry is prohibited in Islam:
1. If a man has more than one wife, the parents of the children born of such marriages can easily be identified. The father as well as the mother can easily be identified. In case of a woman marrying more than one husband, only the mother of the children born of such marriages will be identified and not the father. Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents, mother and father. Psychologists tell us that children who do not know their parents, especially their father undergo severe mental trauma and disturbances. Often they have an unhappy childhood. It is for this reason that the children of prostitutes do not have a healthy childhood. If a child born of such wedlock is admitted in school, and when the mother is asked the name of the father, she would have to give two or more names! I am aware that recent advances in science have made it possible for both the mother and father to be identified with the help of genetic testing. Thus this point which was applicable for the past may not be applicable for the present.

2. Man is more polygamous by nature as compared to a woman.

3. Biologically, it is easier for a man to perform his duties as a husband despite having several wives. A woman, in a similar position, having several husbands, will not find it possible to perform her duties as a wife. A woman undergoes several psychological and behavioral changes due to different phases of the menstrual cycle.

4. A woman who has more than one husband will have several sexual partners at the same time and has a high chance of acquiring venereal or sexually transmitted diseases which can also be transmitted back to her husband even if all of them have no extra-marital sex. This is not the case in a man having more than one wife, and none of them having extra-marital sex.

The above reasons are those that one can easily identify. There are probably many more reasons why Allah, in His Infinite Wisdom, has prohibited polyandry.

3. HIJAAB FOR WOMEN

Question:
Why does Islam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil?
Answer:
The status of women in Islam is often the target of attacks in the secular media. The ‘hijaab’ or the Islamic dress is cited by many as an example of the ‘subjugation’ of women under Islamic law. Before we analyze the reasoning behind the religiously mandated ‘hijaab’, let us first study the status of women in societies before the advent of Islam

1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust
The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity:
1. Babylonian Civilization:
The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death.
2. Greek Civilization:

Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society.
3. Roman Civilization:

When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans.
4. Egyptian Civilization:

The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil.
5. Pre-Islamic Arabia:

Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive.

2. Islam uplifted women and gave them equality and expects them to maintain their status.
Islam uplifted the status of women and granted them their just rights 1400 years ago. Islam expects women to maintain their status.




Hijaab for men
People usually only discuss ‘hijaab’ in the context of women. However, in the Glorious Qur’an, Allah (swt) first mentions ‘hijaab’ for men before ‘hijaab’ for the women. The Qur’an mentions in Surah Noor:
"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do."
[Al-Qur’an 24:30]
The moment a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze.
Hijaab for women.
The next verse of Surah Noor, says:
" And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons..." [Al-Qur’an 24:31]

3. Six criteria for Hijaab.
According to Qur’an and Sunnah there are basically six criteria for observing hijaab:
1. Extent:

The first criterion is the extent of the body that should be covered. This is different for men and women. The extent of covering obligatory on the male is to cover the body at least from the navel to the knees. For women, the extent of covering obligatory is to cover the complete body except the face and the hands upto the wrist. If they wish to, they can cover even these parts of the body. Some scholars of Islam insist that the face and the hands are part of the obligatory extent of ‘hijaab’.
All the remaining five criteria are the same for men and women.
2. The clothes worn should be loose and should not reveal the figure.
3. The clothes worn should not be transparent such that one can see through them.
4. The clothes worn should not be so glamorous as to attract the opposite sex.
5. The clothes worn should not resemble that of the opposite sex.
6. The clothes worn should not resemble that of the unbelievers i.e. they should not wear clothes that are specifically identities or symbols of the unbelievers’ religions.

4. Hijaab includes conduct and behaviour among other things
Complete ‘hijaab’, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of ‘hijaab’ of the clothes is observing ‘hijaab’ in a limited sense. ‘Hijaab’ of the clothes should be accompanied by ‘hijaab’ of the eyes, ‘hijaab’ of the heart, ‘hijaab’ of thought and ‘hijaab’ of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.

5. Hijaab prevents molestation
The reason why Hijaab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:
"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Al-Qur’an 33:59]
The Qur’an says that Hijaab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.

6. Example of twin sisters
Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijaab prevents women from being molested.

7. Capital punishment for the rapists
Under the Islamic shariah, a man convicted of having raped a woman, is given capital punishment. Many are astonished at this ‘harsh’ sentence. Some even say that Islam is a ruthless, barbaric religion! I have asked a simple question to hundreds of non-Muslim men. Suppose, God forbid, someone rapes your wife, your mother or your sister. You are made the judge and the rapist is brought in front of you. What punishment would you give him? All of them said they would put him to death. Some went to the extent of saying they would torture him to death. To them I ask, if someone rapes your wife or your mother you want to put him to death. But if the same crime is committed on somebody else’s wife or daughter you say capital punishment is barbaric. Why should there be double standards?

8. Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women
Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers, hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’.

9. USA has one of the highest rates of rape
United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.
Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?

10. Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes
Naturally as soon as Islamic Shariah is implemented positive results will be inevitable. If Islamic Shariah is implemented in any part of the world, whether it is America or Europe, society will breathe easier. Hijaab does not degrade a woman but uplifts a woman and protects her modesty and chastity."

PS Ii rog pe moderatori sa-mi ierte faptul ca am postat in limba engleza.

ceea ce am citat din Coran , din Suratul An -Nur nu are nici o legatura cu ceea ce i s-a intimplat acelui nefericit care a fost omorit , cred ca ma-ti inteles gresit , personal nu sint de acord cu asa ceva si din cite stiu nici Islamul nu ingaduie asta .



citatul meu venea ca raspuns , dupa parerea mea , celui scris de "maharajah"------excuzemoi .........



mundus ____machaALLAH

Din cate stiu eu, o intreaga si minunata colectie de moda a fost arsa pentru ca pe poalele rochiilor erau inscrise versete din coran.
Dumitreascai i s-a "sugerat" sa nu mai cante "Saria este sora mea".

Mundus, Alibem, din cate stiu eu Coranul nu este tradus.

Uite ca, macar acum aflu ceva nou, datorita voua !

Mundus, mai in urma te-am intrebat ceva, si, acelasi lucru ti l-am trimis si pe PM.

Ce te-a motivat la trecere ?

Coane Mundus,
Iti bati joc de noi ? Da domne' un rezumat in limba romana , eventual cu comentariile tale. Ca textul in engleza il gaseam si noi pe google .

Sefu daca nu traduce si Mundus cele citate de el, de data viitoare am sa bag mesaje intregi, dar scrise in araba...sa vedeti atunci heroglife...si fara se le mai traduc

March...probabil ca ai vazut ca nici macar n-a inteles cea ce a citat din cea ce a scris doctoru...apropo doctor...de care doctor??

Dragi prieteni...daca cu adevarat doriti sa discutam si sa intelegem tema la acest topic, sunt de acord...dar fara Allahu Akbbar si al de astea, ca eu sunt neofascist si poate am sa incep si eu sa inchid mesajele cu ceva legat de ala mustaciosu!

Sorin.

Sorin, le voi lasa, pentru ca engleza este o limba inteligibila. Spre deosebire de araba, pe care nu o intelegem...
Si pe aceasta cale ii rog pe musulmani sa se abtina si ei (in general cel putin) de la obisnuitele fraze in araba, fie ele si de salut. Ca principiu, nu ca regula.

Mundus, am citit cate ceva din cele pe care le-ai copiat aici.

Asta mi-a atras atentia:

Ia fii atent ce scrie Noul Testament:

1 Timotei 3:2 si 12 (reluat in Tit 1:6)

1 Corinteni 7:2

Si insesi cuvintele lui Isus, care explica de ce poligamia si divortul au fost acceptabile la anticii evrei (Matei 19:4-8):

Crestinismul nu a admis niciodata poligamia, cu exceptia unor secte obscure. Doctorul din care citezi tu minte cel putin in acest aspect...

Ma bucur ca considerati ca ceea ce au facut indivizii respectivi a fost ceva rau. Cel putin asta este un punct in care suntem de acord...

contraste, am promis ca o sa scriu pe site-ul meu ce m-a determinat sa-mi schimb religia. Acesta e aproape gata, insa mai sunt unele chestii pe care vreau sa le mai modific la el si nu prea am timp.

mutulica, daca tu vezi o femeie pe strada vei intra in vorbe cu ea doar daca te simti atras fizic de ea. Ori femeile (destul de multe zic eu) se vad nevoite sa apeleze la tot felul de chestii pentru a fi mai frumoase. Dar ce-ar fi daca nu artactia fizica ar prima(precum se intampla la animale) si am incepe sa judecam oamenii si dupa alte criterii in afara de fizic? Oare calitatile sotiei tale nu ar fi mai de pret decat fizicul sau? (cand spun asta nu sunt ipocrit si recunosc ca si fizicul e important, dar nu intr-o masura atat de mare precum se intampla in zilele noastre). Poate acesta e si motivul pentru care exista o rata apreciabila a divorturilor. O casnicie nu se poate avea ca temelie sexul.

March, ma indoiesc ca ai fi gasit alea cu un search pe google. Eu tot scotocesc prin tot felul de site-uri islamice si materialul acela mi s-a parut laconic.

1,618033, la ce varianta de biblie te referi? s-ar putea sa nu fie vorba despre aceeasi.

nu ma convingi... deloc!
adica eu ca si crestin am un criteriu de alegere subiectiv, si daca nu-mi convine ce am ales divortez... un musulman, alege o gramada de textile pt ca habar nu are ce e dedesubt... nici fizic si nici psihic, si daca nu-i convine dar isi permite mai alege odata, si inca o data... avantajul poligamiei

si totusi pun problema emanciparii femeii. am citit Virtejul de James Clavell si desi este fictiune pur, niste chestii vin din realitate, si anume faptul ca la baza revolutiei islamice din Iran au stat tinerii intorsi de la scoala de la Paris, toti cu vederi socialiste si animati de intentii bune.
majoritatea au sfirsit prin a fi impuscati de analfabeti, care la un moment dat nu au mai stiut unde sa se opreasca. indiferent ca ride lumea de mine, intrebarile mele sunt serioase. poate ca nu ma exprim eu cum trebuie, dar incerc sa vad punctul de vedere al celor ce au aderat la miscare, pentru ca dupa mine, islamismul trece 6 secole mai tirziu prin aceeasi intunecare religioasa prin care a trecut crestinismul cind se juca de-a inchizitia

cred cu tarie ca o religie care promoveaza intoleranta, e cam de netolerat... ori eu nu stiu mare lucru despre islam, si am sperat ca in acest subiect sa aflu mai multe de la cei ce se pricep

din nefericire, feedback-ul pe care il dati si tu si allibem este neconvingator. mai ramine de raspuns lui dead-cat... care sunt consecintele pentru un musulman care decide sa schimbe macazul?

Acest topic a fost editat de mutulica: 28 Apr 2005, 05:23 AM

Era sa zic "ma, tu esti feminist!", apoi mi-am adus aminte ca esti musulman

Brosurile de propaganda (abunda !) de tipul "Islamul explicat occidentalilor" sunt pline de interpretari fanteziste.
Partea proasta pt proaspetii convertiti e ca studiaza doar surse in engleza care sunt scrise in general special pentru ei.

Acest topic a fost editat de 1,618033: 28 Apr 2005, 08:51 AM

Mundus, ti-am citat din Biblia Ortodoxa. Daca vei dori, iti pot cita din inca trei traduceri romanesti ale Bibliei, si din vreo 20 de traduceri in engleza. Toate scriu acelasi lucru. Crestinii au fost monogami de la inceput. Iar acel doctor minte. Daca vei studia istoria popoarelor antice, vei vedea ca egiptenii si grecii nu injoseau femeia asa cum pretinde respectivul. Sunt perioade si perioade in istorie. Nu totul este alb si negru.

Personal n-am nimic impotriva poligamiei in tarile islamice, atat timp cat nu incercati sa o impuneti in Occident, unde asta incalca legea. In definitiv, majoritatea barbatilor din Occident au amante, aventuri si n-au nici o problema sa se duca la un strip-bar. Aceiasi fac pe lupii moralisti cand vine vorba de conditia femeii in tarile islamice. Nu poligamia este cheia problemei.

Dar am totul impotriva modului in care este injosita femeia, redusa la stadiul de obiect, in aceleasi tari. Nu neg faptul ca sunt destui musulmani care isi iubesc femeia si o respecta ca pe un OM. Dar egalitatea in tratament este departe de a fi o realitate in acele tari. Evident, se poate vorbi de o discriminare si in Occident. Insa in tarile islamice, discriminarea este bruta.

Si cred ca asta tine nu numai de Islam, ci si de cultura. Am un prieten iranian crestin care isi iubeste nespus sotia. Dar ea nu are nici un cuvant de spus in fata lui, el ia toate deciziile. Ea este o fata foarte inteligenta si fina. Si totusi de ani de zile s-a limitat la un rol de obiect decorativ si mama in casnicia aia. Makes me sick. De-abia de curand a indraznit sa isi caute singura o cariera, si lui i-a fost foarte greu sa accepte acest lucru. Si e crestin, nu musulman!

Cred ca este o conditionare culturala care le dauneaza femeilor. Nu spun ca Occidentul si cultura sa sunt mult mai bune, dar macar lasa libertatea de alegere femeilor in aceasta privinta. Accept diferentele de cultura, dar mi-e imposibil sa accept lipsa libertatii de alegere...

Acest topic a fost editat de 1,618033: 28 Apr 2005, 08:52 AM

Multi afirma ca poligamia a fost autorizata odata cu aparitia Islamului...dar multe religii si popoare inaintea Islamului au autorizat casatoria cu mai multe femei , 10 sau chiar mai mult de o 100 , fara nici o limita nici conditie .

Vechiul Testament arata ca David avea 300 sute femei si Salomon 700 sute (femei si concubine ).

Islamul a impus limita si conditiile unei poligamii. In momentul ce Ghaylam ibn Salama intra in Islam el avea 10 sotii , Profetul ( pacea lui Allah sa fie cu el )ii spune : alege 4 dintre ele si despartete de celelalte .

Musulmanul este supus la mai multe conditii in Islam pentru a putea practica poligamia:
- sa fie echitabil cu cele 2 sotii 3 sau 4 in ceea ce priveste hrana lor , hainele de care au nevoie zi de zi , locuinta
fiecaruia , sa partajeze noptile intre ele ;
Acela care nu este sigur ca poate sa respecte aceste obligatii de a fi just si echitabil atunci trebuie sa se casatoreasca
numai cu una .

Acesta este un sistem moral pentru ca nu permite unui barbat sa aiba raport cu orce femeie unde vrea el si cind vrea
el . Poligamia care este practicata in occident , este in afara orcarei lege femeile nu sint sotii sint amice si metrese, concubine , numarul femeilor nu este limitat la 4 acesta nici macar nu are nici o limita din toate punctele de vedere .

Relatiile dintre ei sint in secret , nici nu est obligat sa recunoasca copii nascuti din aceste relatii, copii abandonati ,avorturi...
Poligamia in occident este recunoscuta de lege dar fara sa-i spunem pe nume fara nici un control moral fara nici un sentiment uman .
Dar care dintre cele doua sisteme este deci mai moral ,mai nobil , mai uman, mai apt sa controleze placerea umana , sa respecte femeia ?


Voi incercati pe orce cale sa atacati Islamul din toate punctele de vedere , ma intreb daca chiar vreti sa intelegeti ceva sa faceti o diferenta orcum ar fi ea buna sau rea , depinde de fiecare , nu vedeti si partea buna a acestei religii , nu stiti numai sa faceti glume si iar sa atacati si tot asa de parca am putea noi schimba ceva !!! Nu sintem noi in masura de-a schimba nimic , nici macar mentalitatea cuiva si daca am vorbi de Islam inca o 100 de ani , asta numai Dumnezeu o poate face .

Femeile in general din toate paturile sociale si din celelalte religii sint ele tratate oare egal , sint ele respectate , sint ele iubite , sint ele protejate intr-un cuvint in aceasta societate ?

Da' stramosii nostri traco-dacii cate neveste aveau ?

1,618033, femeia in Grecia antica era respectata? Ma amuzi! Nu ti-ar strica putina documentatie. Daca ai citit pe undeva chestia asta spune te rog unde anume. Crede-ma ca femeia in Atena avea un tratament groaznic. Mai bine traiau femeile in Sparta. Dragii mei, intelegeti ca: FEMEIA NU E O MARFA!

Spuneti voi va rog ce reprezinta femeia pentru voi si mai apoi mai vorbim. Va rog sa nu fiti ipocriti!

Acest topic a fost editat de Mundus: 28 Apr 2005, 01:34 PM

allibem, eu unul nu am nimic contra poligamiei in tarile arabe. Daca asta vor barbatii si femeile de acolo, n-au decat.
Am ceva impotriva importarii acestei practici pe aceste meleaguri. Dar nu asta era buba.

Sunt destule culturi diferite de a noastra (occidentala). In India, de exemplu, inca se mai practica casatoria aranjata de parinti inca de cand copiii sunt mici de tot. Acolo, a-ti da intalniri amoroase este ceva cumplit de socant (nu peste tot, ci in zonele rurale cu precadere). Doi tineri care s-ar tine de mana pe strada ar fi niste extraterestri. Este ceva de negandit: alegerea sotului/sotiei apartine parintilor, iar nu copiilor. La fel si in unele zone din Iran.

Acum ce sa zic: ca acolo sunt mai putine divorturi? Eu zic ca e irelevant. Poate ca mai putine divorturi inseamna de fapt mai multe casnicii nefericite.

Libertatea de alegere este cea care preocupa pe multa lume, iar nu preceptele culturale diferite.
Mai precis: daca pentru tine e ok ca barbatul tau sa se culce cu inca una/doua femei, si alegi singura aceasta stare (pentru care in Occident se baga divort... de catre sotii!), asta e! E dreptul tau, in definitiv. Barbatii n-au nici o problema aici: s-ar culca, iertati-ma, cu toate odata daca ar putea, ca de-aia au si inventat poligamia, sa fim seriosi. Si mentinand gluma: barbatii europeni sunt chiar discriminati ca nu pot fi poligami, eh! :|

Dar daca vad ca femeile din Afganistan, cand au plecat talibanii de acolo, au ales sa dea jos burqa si sa se simta si ele femei, iar nu niste mogaldete imbracate in cearceafuri din cap pana in picioare, oare asta nu arata ca acea interpretare a Islamului darama conceptul libertatii de alegere? Daca Islamul nu patrunde in inima acelor populatii, atunci de ce sa-l impui cu forta? Conservatorii din acele zone au spus ca femeile respective sunt "usoare" pentru ca nu umbla cu fata acoperita. Mda.

Daca as fi femeie, cred ca mi-ar fi absolut imposibil sa aleg o astfel de privire asupra lumii.


ps. am avut rabdarea sa privesc niste filme iraniene de ultima ora. Distribuite de ambasada Iranului, deci acceptate oficial de statul iranian. Foooarte interesante: cineastii iranieni isi bat joc de imamii conservatori si de autoritatile care se baga cu picioarele in viata tinerilor care doresc sa traiasca pe stil occidental, dar respectand valorile islamice intr-un mod moderat... Intr-un stil inocent, care-mi amintea de filmele cu Liceenii din anii '80... Dar mult mai direct atacul si mult mai dur si vehement mesajul.
Asta m-a facut sa inteleg ca populatia tanara din Iran risca sa fie alienata de valorile occidentale tocmai din cauza perceptiei gresite pe care o avem fata de ei aici, in Europa, si mai ales in SUA.
Cu acel islam moderat sunt de acord, si n-am nici o problema.


pps: pentru mundus: femeia mea este jumatatea mea. Si eu jumatatea ei. Daca tu ai impresia ca pentru crestini femeia este o marfa... Poate ca ai o impresie gresita....

Acest topic a fost editat de 1,618033: 28 Apr 2005, 01:49 PM

Parca in alta parte de discuta de istorie

Iar pt. tine Mundus Pt. mine femeia reprezinta ceva ce nu vei intelege niciodata...nu tu si nici aia de partea carora te-ai dat!

Sorin.

cite femei aveau sultanii de la stambul in harem?

Aici da-mi voie sa te contrazic: parintii au obligatia de a-si intretine copiii chiar si in decadentul Occident. De asta s-a inventat, de pilda, pensia alimentara.

Dar daca vor amandoi?

Sistemul meu: ceea ce se intampla de comun acord intre doi adulti este strict treaba lor, si a nimanui altcuiva.

Peste tot in lume sunt oameni care apreciaza femeile si le respecta, dar si misogini... Nu cred ca sunt mai protejate in tarile unde religia musulmana este predominanta, decat in cele in care predomina religia crestina. Probabil ca nici invers, nu stiu...

Sunt si multe femei care ar face acelasi lucru...

Cum adica umar la umar ? Ce pozitie mai e si asta ?
OK. Pentru catrenul ala al tau s-ar putea ca unii islamisti sa te declare un al doilea " Rushdie" . Si atunci trebuie sa te uiti peste umar. Cand treci strada !

cu un(o) fatwa-n cap
si cu jalba in protap.


Acest topic a fost editat de dead-cat: 28 Apr 2005, 02:25 PM

Maaaaaaaaa, aliati crestini, ma ! Alde dead-cat si March !
Or mai fi urmasi brancoveni ? Nu de alta, dar daca tot m-am pus in slujba domniei, sa ma apere ei !
Cat despre fatwa, sa si-o puna ei, barbatii -n cap ! Si pot intra si la harem !
Ca la Romania
Totul e schimbat.
La una femeie,
7 - 8 barbat !

Multumesc, Mundus, astept sa citesc ! Fara glume !

Acest topic a fost editat de contraste: 28 Apr 2005, 04:19 PM

Unde dai si unde crapa Ce inseamna fatwa?? Probabil ca va referiti la carpele alea de pe cap...nnnnnnnuuuuuuuu??

ai vrea tu!
vezi ca-n RO-s mai multe femei ca barbati.
concurenta bat-o vina. se vede si-n "matrimoniale"

fatwa e o "hotarire" a unui judecator islamic (mufti)

la ce m-am referit eu, era fatwa-(ul?) lui Khomeni pe tema "Versetelor Satanice" a lui Rushdie:

carpele-s "burqua"

Acest topic a fost editat de dead-cat: 28 Apr 2005, 04:49 PM