Islamul!, Discutie despre Islam Optiuni

[1,618033]

Bine ai venit inapoi, abureala!

Pe unde te-au mai purtat pasii, de-ai lipsit atat de la Han?...

[abureala]

Bine v-am regasit. Nu am fost plecat nicaieiri, in mod anume, poate ca devenisem prea dependent, si m-am oprit un timp. Poate ca fost bine, o vreme. Lumea se schimba...:-)

[Catalin]

Eu faceam o comparatei intre Biblie si Coran. Tu vrei pur si simplu sa acceptam Biblia si sa aruncam Coranul la gunoi... asta e diferenta intre noi. Un lucru amuzant e ca a existat si un mahomedan care a ars biblioteca din Alexandria fiindca "tot ce ai nevoie sa stii gasesti in Coran". Asa-s extremistii... nedispusi la dialog!

[Promo Contextual]

[abureala]

A fi partizanul Adevarului, te face automat un extremist. Daca nu ma insel tu sau marky erati partizanii daramarii bisericilor, si asta in mod sigur nu e o atitudine extremista.:-) Dar "Ce este Adevarul?", ne intrebam si noi asemenea lui Pilat din Pont...

[Catalin]

Eu n-am fost niciodata partizanul darimarii bisericilor! Si te rog sa fii mai atent cu astfel de afirmatii jignitoare!!

Si nu a fi partizanul Adevarului te face extremist ci pretentia ca faci parte dintr-o elita (a se citi extrema) care se auto-declara a fi singura partizana a Adevarului.

[abureala]

Din locul in care stai asa se vede. :-) Exista doar puncte de vedere, si nici un Adevar. E firesc, "Viata e complexa si are multe aspecte" .:-) Intamplarea face ca sa fiu din acea "extrema" care exprima chiar Adevarul. Orice analiza serioasa a doctrinelor religioase, poate confirma acest lucru. Insa aici nu e vorba de analize arbitrare, scoase din sacul prejudecatilor....sau acele analize ale persoanelor care PRETIND ca au inteels Biblia...In cazul de fata ele coincid...:-) Si nu sunt deloc subiective...:-)

[Mundus]

[TriRegnum]

Biblia catolica si ortodoxa nu au fost falsificate, inca mai sunt scrieri in greaca vechi de sute de ani, sunt tinute de Biserica si daca inveti greaca poate ai noroc sa arunci o privire peste ele . (numai expertii au acces la ele)

[gio19ro]

[Mihai]

Am sters o parte din mesajele offtopic din cadrul acestui subiect de discutie.
Va rog totodata sa nu mai citati intreg mesajul imediat precedent. Multumesc pentru intelegere, revenim ontopic.

[Marcus]

Vorbeati despre cunoasterea Adevarului... Nu putem cunoaste Adevarul absolut cine crede ca-l cunoaste nebun este. Iar cartile sfinte nu ne ajuta sa-l cunoastem ci doar ne ofera o cale catre mantuire care depinde de noi daca o alegem sau nu.


Moderator 1,61: Sters parte din mesaj care poate genera un intreg flame. Desi sunt, pe fond, de acord cu tine, nu pot permite atacuri la persoana/religia cuiva aici. Rog RECITITI regulamentul site-ului inainte de a va lansa in injurii la adresa altora!

Acest topic a fost editat de 1,618033: 4 Mar 2004, 11:20 AM

[Oul Dogmatic]

Deci citeste Biblia si Coranul si te vei lamuri, n-are nici un rost sa mai facem comentarii.

[Marcus]

Un link catre doctrina islamica, care raspunde multor intrebari de pe thread, printre care poligamia, rolul femeii in Islam, etc (vedeti pagina de meniuri): Liga islamica si culturala din Romania

http://www.islam.ro/C-cap6.htm

Acest topic a fost editat de 3,1415926535: 6 Mar 2004, 11:23 AM

[Marcus]

Islam’ ul este un cuvant arabesc si inseamna a se supune, a asculta, a fi docil. Din cauza ca se bazeaza pe o deplina supunere fata de Allah i se spune islam. (citat din adresa pe care am dat-o in mesajul precedent).

Mundus spunea altceva: Islam=pace. Apare un mare semn de intrebare

?

Ce inseamna de fapt Islam? Inclin sa cred ca "pace" nu e un cuvant potrivit, si martor mi-e istoria asiei.

[SORIN]

Si ai perfecta dreptate 3,141....

Sorin.

[Mundus]

[Marcus]

[Mundus]

Nu uita ca razboiul este vazut ca o ultima solutie.

Care macel? Da-mi te rog un exemplu facut de musulmani in istorie. Dar te rog sa fie musulmani, nu indivizi precum Saddam sau bin Laden.

[1,618033]

mundus, tu ai citit istoria Romaniei?

iar daca nu, uite o scurta istorie a Islamului:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/history/chronology/

Remarci de cate ori apare acolo cuvantul "razboi", "cucerire", "batalie"?

Daca vei cauta atent, vei vedea si masacrele...

Acest topic a fost editat de 1,618033: 9 Mar 2004, 05:52 PM

[SORIN]

Care macel Mundus ??? Sunt asa de multe exemple, dar am sa incep cu un exemplu unde cei macelariti au fost crestinii:

Arafat's Massacre of Damour
by Joseph Hobeika
Read about Arafat
PLO massacres in Lebanon
Organized by Professor M. Kahl

[M.K. Note: The following was posted on the Internet by Joseph Hobeika on July 11, 2001. While I have no smoking gun to prove this was written by Elias Hobeika, the author was a fervent admirer of Elias Hobeika, calling him the Churchill of Lebanon. He also posted a message referring to himself as Elias and then changed the message after I wrote him that I considered this an admission that it was indeed Elias Hobeika who posted under the name of Joseph. I have both messages. I have been told that Joseph is also the name of Hobeika's father and son and the Joseph posting this message was Elias's attorney posting from Paris. Since Elias was in Paris frequently, I assume Joseph allowed Elias to use his Internet account and this is borne out by the writing style that changes dramatically.]
Do you not remember Damour Lebanon. Let me remind you. Arafat and the PLO plunged Lebanon into "massacres, rape, mutilation, rampages of looting and killings. Out of a population of 3.2 million, some 40,000 or more people had been killed, 100,000 wounded, 5,000 permanently maimed

In January of 1976, the destruction of Damour, a town of some 25,000 was completed by the PLO within two weeks. "The priest of Damour, Father Mansour Labaky desperately trying to save people of the town telephoned Kamal Jumblat [one of the Lebanese leaders], in whose parliamentary constituency Damour lay. 'Father, Jumblat said, 'I can do nothing for you, because it depends on Yasser Arafat' " . All efforts were useless. In the morning following the first night of invasion, when more than fifty people were massacred, Father Labaky "despite the shelling managed to get to the one house, to bring out some corpses. An entire family had been killed, the Canan family, four children all dead, and the mother, the father, and the grandfather. The mother was still hugging one of the children. And she was pregnant
The eyes of the children were gone and their limbs were cut off. No legs and no arms" (123). In total, 582 people were massacred in the storming of Damour. Father Labaky went with the Red Cross to bury them. "Many of the bodies had been dismembered, so they had to count the heads to number the dead. Three of the men they found had had their genitals cut off and stuffed in their mouths"
Azmi Zrayir, the PLO Member, an organizer of the terrorist attack in March, 1975 on the Savoy Hotel in Tel Aviv in which seven people were killed and eleven wounded, was remembered in Lebanon as "a thief, a murderer, a rapist and a torturer." Being a PLO headquarters commander in Tyre, "he formed a football team into which he conscripted teenage children. The players were forced to gratify Zrayir's sexual appetites. He debauched both girls and boys. At least one child who defied him was shot dead" (144).

Arafat was ruthless not only with the Lebanese citizens but with the Palestinian Arabs too. In January, 1976 during the Christians' attack on Tall al Za'tar refugee camp the PLO tried to prevent the people in the camp from leaving. "Conditions within the camp became critical, with acute shortages of food and water, as bombardment continued day after day. The ideal of self sacrifice, imposed on the civilians by a leadership which itself took no risks, was never known to be the choice of the unhappy people themselves. And not all of the fighters who fell with their guns in their hands were cut down by the fire of the Christians. Some who tried to surrender or escape from the camp were shot in the back by their own comrades" (133). The high command in the PLO headquarters in West Beirut "not only refused to let the Palestinians leave the camp, or let the fighters surrender in order to save them all from hell, but insisted that the entire population, including the children, were to be sacrificed"

Knowing the atrocities perpetrated against their Arab "brethren" one can only imagine the fate of those who were considered by the PLO to be "spies" or "traitors." "While searching a citizen in Sydon, the PLO found on him Israeli money and a pair of shoes made in Israel His hands and legs were chained to the fenders of four vehicles. When a Fatah officer signaled with his pistol, the four cars raced away, tearing his body apart while horrified spectators screamed. The cars raced through the streets with the bloody limbs dangling"

"Nada al Murr the daughter of Alfred al Murr, a well known Lebanese civil engineer and industrialist, and May al Murr, a poet and historian saw a man torn apart by two vehicles". If one wonders where the PLO bandits learned their barbaric skills one should be advised to look into a book by Jhon Laffin. He wrote in "The PLO Connections," how the PLO trained their youth. "An instructor gave an order and a boy reached into basket and pulled out a chicken. Then he wrung its neck and dropped the dead bird. "No, no, no!" Arafat said reprovingly. He too reached into the basket and dragged out a chicken. And without wringing its neck he pulled the thing apart."

The Lebanese crimes are only a short page in Arafat's criminal biography. Torture, murder and the kidnaping of innocent people was Arafat's and the PLO's signature wherever they were present. Thousands of people perished in Jordan in September of 1970 when Arafat tried to wrest power from King Hussein. More than a thousand Palestinian Arabs accused of "collaboration" with Israel were brutally killed by Arafat's cronies during the "intifada." During the thirty five years of the PLO's existence thousands of People have been maimed and murdered in bombings, drive by shootings, stabbings, etc.

The terror unleashed by the PLO all over the world has destroyed and ruined lives of countless people in countless countries. The PLO leaders proudly declared that Arafat bears full responsibility for everything done by the PLO. Ahmed Tibi, Abu Mazen, and Mohammed Dahlan have repeatedly said that it was "Arafat who sent [the "fighters"] out on their operations." Is it possible to imagine a greater hypocrisy than the arrest of a half conscious 83 year old former Chilean dictator in a hospital, and the embrace of Arafat by the leaders of almost all countries in the world.

Cred ca e destul pt. introdus si n-am atasat si poze ca sa nu dau sadisfactie cuiva pe aici

Sorin.

ps. rog pe cei ce urmaresc acest totic sa citeasca cu atentie!!

[SORIN]

Azi Mundus...azi 11/03/2004 la Madrid !!

Mai ai nevoie de exemple ???

Sorin.

[Mihai]

Ce s-a intampla ieri in Spania e groaznic...

Insa revin asupra observatiei de mai demult: aici se discuta despre islam, nu despre extremism religios.

[SORIN]

Mihai....pt. ca observatia a fost mi-a fost adresata, uite de unde provine mesajul meu:

[Mundus]

[RamonaV]

[Mundus]

Nu am scris mai nimic despre diferentele dintre shiiti si suniti, momentan ma documentez si eu. Cine doreste infofmatii despre shiiti poate accesa www.al-shia.com

Pentru cei care doresc sa citeasca despre islamul din evul mediu exista un site simpatic si foarte bine structurat: Islamul in Evul Mediu

Va urez succes la lectura!

Apropo, iata aici informatii despre cateva organizatii islamice propacifiste: Organizatii islamice

[Mundus]

Ar mai fi un site bine structurat: www.muttaqun.com

Si nici siteul acesta nu-i mai rau: www.sultan.org decat primul.

[Storm]

Mundus, nu stiu daca ti s-a mai pus intrebarea pt ca threadul e destul de amplu si necesita timp de citit, dar:
Dupa ce ai trecut de la religia crestina la islam, simti ca ceva s-a schimbat in bine? Cu alte cuvinte, a meritat?

[Mundus]

Da Storm... sau schimbat multe, poate mai multe decat mi-as fi putut chiar eu imagina si pot spune ca aceasta schimbare inca... continua.

In plan spiritual islamul a reusit sa-mi raspunda la toate intrebarile. Acum simt ca acea cautare nebuna dupa adevar a luat sfarsit. Dar asta nu e tot...

Islamul nu este numai o religie ci un mod de viata! Mi-am schimbat modul de a gandi si de a ma comporta in relatiile cu ceilalti. Schimbarile sunt prea multe si prea mari ca sa la pot spune aici. Poate ca atunci cand imi voi face un site personal am sa fiu mai explicit si cu ocazia asta am sa vorbesc si despre diferitele "secte" care au aparut in islam. Sper ca atunci apele se vor limpezi pt multi si vor intelege si ei ca islamul nu are nimic in comun cu terorismul.

[Leon]

[Mundus]

Leon,

Fii si tu putin mai curios, incearca si tu sa intelegi ce se intampla in jurul tau. A pune in aceeasi oala ortodoxia islamica(sunnismul) cu alte secte precum cea wahabitilor e ca si cum ai spune ca protestantii sunt catolici.


1,61: Mundus, ti-am editat mesajul. Dar o poti face si tu insuti de acum incolo, apasand pe butonul "Edit" din dreapta jos a mesajului.

Acest topic a fost editat de 1,618033: 26 Apr 2004, 08:40 AM

[Minerval]

Domnule Mundus se pare, ca fara voia dv., ati cazut in capcana ignorantei. AlQaeda, ca factiune militaro-spirituala, reprezinta una dintre cele mai indragite si respectate grupari la ora actuala in randul popolatiilor de sorginte islamica. Alaturi de AlQaeda si gruparea Hamas a capatat proportii ingrijoratoare vizavi de ultimul incident, respectiv asasinarea liderului spiritual al Hamas. Prin urmare practicati rabdarea mai mult si informati-va in prealabil asupra informatiilor pe care intentionati sa le scrieti.

ps: incercati sa scrieti corect denumirea factiunilor extremiste la care faceti referire in monologurile dv. pentru a nu crea confuzii; e.g. AlQaeda.

F.'.

[Mundus]

Lumea tinde sa vada islamul ca pe ceva omogen, insa realitatea este cu totul alta. In islam exista foarte multe secte (unele dintre ele merg atat de departe incat cred ca insusi Coranul a fost scris de Muhammad(pbuh)sau ca nu acesta ar fi trebuit sa fie profetul ci Ali, iar exemplele pot continua). Realitatea e mult mai complexa.

Nu poti acuza un catolic pentru faptele pe care le face un protestant; amandoi sunt crestini dar gandesc foarte diferit(asta ca sa nu spun total opus).

Daca cineva are chef sa se convinga ca nu toti musulmanii gandesc precum "desteptii" aia care practica terorismul n-are decat sa acceseze: www.mosque.com .

[Leon]

[carpatic]

Leon, daca spui ca "shia e partea ortodoxa" spune-ne si de ce crezi tu asta, inainte sa-l acuzi pe Mundus ca nu stie multe. Nici nu are cum sa stie multe, e abia la inceput. In general parerea mea e ca musulmanii nu vorbesc cu placere si cu lux de amanunte despre alte curente decat cel din care fac ei parte. Diferentele sunt chiar mari intre orientari, dar sunt decelabile si intre cele 4 scoli sunnite clasice. Musulmanul de rand cunoaste islamul cam la fel cum crestinii de rand cunosc crestinismul, adica superficial, in ce priveste substratul. Ei respecta traditia si ritualul, dar subtilitatile sunt pentru cunoscatori.
Musulmanii in general, chiar si cei care traiesc in vest, sunt cu inima alaturi de "cauza islamica" si marea lor majoritate sprijina deschis (la nivel ideatic si declarativ, mai departe e putin altceva) miscarile integriste palestiniene. Nu stiu ca vreun musulman, in afara desigur de cei cumparati, sa fie favorabil prezentei americane in Irak. Ba dimpotriva. Insa de aici pana la a fi "sprijinitor Al-Quaeda" e totusi un drum pe care foarte putini il fac.
Islamul a avut intotdeauna secte dizidente violente. Interesant este episodul Nizarizilor ("Assasinii" lui Hassan al-Sabah) din decolele 11-13, care practicau asasinatul politic, luari de ostatici, etc.