Prima atestare documentară a rromilor de pe teritoriul României actuale, datează din anul 1385, când domnitorul Ţării Româneşti, Dan I, dăruieşte Mănăstirii Tismana posesiunile care aparţinuseră mai înainte Mănăstirii Vodiţa de lângă Turnu Severin, posesiuni primite de la unchiul său Vladislav I, între care şi 40 de sălaşe de “aţigani”.

De-a lungul vremii, cercetători renumiţi ca John Sampson, Alexandru Paspati, Johan Dimitri Taikon sau pelerini ca Bernhard von Breydenbach ori Arnold von Haff plasează ţiganii în urma unor experienţe aprofundate în rândul triburilor hinduse sau indiene. John Sampson găseşte originea triburilor ţigăneşti în N-V Indiei determinând după cercetarea idiomului ca strămoşi apropiaţi a limbii romani(ţigănească), limba singhaleză, marathi, sindhi, punjabi, dardica şi pahari de V(dialecte hinduse vorbite de băştinaşi). De asemenea graiul ţigănesc conţine amprente exacte a limbii sanscrite fiind identificate peste 500 de cuvinte a căror origine indică poate fi uşor de recunoscut. După cercetări pe eşantioane de populaţii ţigăneşti din întreaga Europă în 1940, savanţii străini clasifică ca predominantă în cadrul indivizilor respectivi, grupa de sânge de tip B ceea ce încă o dată înrădăcinează ideea că originea ţiganilor este total străină de destinul Europei aceştia aparţinând exclusiv continentului asiatic. Mai rămân câteva întrebări, de pildă, când, cum şi de ce au migrat ţiganii în Europa. În 950 d.Ch. istoricul arab Hamza din Ispahan vorbeşte despre monarhul persan Bahram Gur ce şi-a încheiat domnia în jurul lui 438 d.Ch. De aici aflăm primele mărturii despre ţigani cunoscuţi ca zotti sau luri. Astfel regele Persiei îi va cere suveranului Indiei 12.000 de lăutari care ar fi urmat să distreze auditorii şi să se stabilească acolo pentru a deveni agricultori şi a munci pământul primind în schimb fiecare, vite, măgari şi grâne. 50 de ani mai târziu în poemul epic naţional persan Şah ( Cartea Regilor ) aflăm că lurii adică ţiganii au mâncat grânele şi vitele refuzând munca pământului ca urmare fiind izgoniţi de către regele Bahram Gur. De atunci legenda spune că ţiganii: „ umblă astăzi prin lume, căutând de lucru, întovărăşindu-se cu câinii şi cu lupii, furând la drumul mare pe timp de zi şi de noapte. ” Însă migraţia efectivă a ţiganilor în Europa începe din secolul XIV odată cu cucerirea de către turci a portului grecesc Gallipoli. De altfel ascensiunea triburilor nomade indiene va fi strict legată de victoriile turceşti şi făurirea puternicului Imperiu Otoman, ţiganii prosperând în interiorul lui.

Romii (uneori scris rromii, popular ţiganii) sunt un grup etnic care poate fi găsit în aproape toată Europa, dar mai ales în România, Bulgaria, Ungaria, Slovacia, Grecia şi Serbia. Numele de "ţigani" (zingari, tsigans, zigeuners, cigani, cikani in alte limbi) provine din grecescul athinganoi, (tradus: "a nu se atinge"), numele unei secte din Bizanţ care practica izolaţionismul, cu care romii au fost confundati. (wikipedia)

Paper delivered at the:

“1. International Roman Symposium”
Trakya Üniversitesi, Edirne (Turkey), May 7-8, 2005

Gypsies (Tsiganes, Zigeuner, Çingeneler …) or
“Roma” (“Sinti & Roma”)

Some Reflections about “Political Correctness”
with special reference to Germany

If I remember correctly, the name of this symposium initially had “Gypsies” in its title; later on this was changed to “Roman”. This “development” is actually the subject of my contribution today.

In many countries, especially western ones – and for the last few years in Turkey, too – efforts have been made over the past three decades to assert and push through a new “political correctness” by renaming “Gypsies”, “Tsiganes”, “Cigani”, “Zigeuner”, “Çingeneler” and so forth as “Roma” (“Romanies”) or “Sinti and Roma”, the specific usage “designed” for Germany and the German language. I want to discuss here the reasons for this “language reform”and its implications.

To make it clear at the very beginning: I belong to those, who think it more appropriate to keep the specific (outsider) terms of the majority populations for Gypsies, as they have been used for centuries.

The main points put forward when asking outsiders to use the designation “Roma” can be summarized as follows:

1. Reference is generally made to the First Romani World Congress in London in 1971 and its decision that from then on all the Gypsies of the world should be called “Roma”.

2. It is obviously perceived as a kind of “natural right”, that the specific term used by the group itself is postulated to be the only valid one.

3. Nearly all the foreign names for Gypsies are said to be pejorative, discriminating and tainted with prejudice.

4. Concerning the traditional German word for Gypsies (Zigeuner) it is argued that National-socialism brought the term into discredit, although, at the same time, it is stated that the term has always been pejorative.

5. Sometimes it is argued that the term “Roma” has already become so colloquial, that persons who do not behave according to what is thought to be politically correct, are labelled at least as backward, if not as racist (or in Germany as Nazi).

6. When confronted with the fact that many Gypsies themselves use the terms attached to them by their neighbours, it is put forward that it would be different when Gypsies themselves use these, from when outsiders do so.

Let’s now discuss these arguments one by one.

1. At the First Romani World Congress in 1971 only about two dozen “delegates”, apart from a few observers, are said to have taken the far-reaching decision for several millions of Gypsies worldwide, that they should thenceforth present themselves as “Roma”. Even when we take later Romani World Congresses with more participants into consideration, the legitimacy for such far-reaching decisions is rather weak.

Nearly all Gypsy groups, to my knowledge, lack a sense of larger trans-tribal units experienced in common, and solidarity beyond clans, tribes, local or regional units is largely absent. Although several organizations for Gypsies in different countries – which, by the way, often incorporate foreign terms in their names – have been founded during recent decades, they are not deeply rooted in the communities concerned. Trans-national or even world organizations enjoy even less support from local and regional groups. Rivalry between different persons or groups is still widespread.

2. There are many Gypsy groups (especially Oriental ones) who have never heard of the term “Roma” and many more who have their own different designations (like Lom or Dom in Turkey). There is no legitimacy or justification in attaching a “Roma” label to them. Besides, this would contradict attaching the recognition of insider names that is supposedly aimed at.

By the way, the “original” term for Gypsies seems to be “Dom”, rather than “Rom”.

Of course, a problem arises when one really speaks about Roma “proper” and not about Gypsies in general. Therefore one would always have to explain whether one is using the term “Roma” in a broader or narrower sense.

We are in need for a term covering all different Gypsy groups. And we have such terms in the specific languages.

If it were demanded, that henceforward only insider terms should be used worldwide, one can imagine what kind of confusion and uncertainty would arise. Such a procedure is certainly not in the interest of many ethnic groups and nations. For example: Germans are called Germans although they call themselves “Deutsche” and although they are not the only Germanic people. Although the Alemannen form just a small part (or tribe, if you like) of Germans, all Germans are called “Allemands/ Almanlar” by, for instance, French or Turks. Even “worse”, Germans are called “dumb” (Njemac, Nemci and so forth) in Slavonic languages. Despite all these strange foreign designations for Germans, I have not heard about any protest against them.

It is much more “natural” that ethnic groups or nations bear names different from those given to them by their neighbours. Insider terms are often almost unknown to neighbouring groups, and quite often the designations given by foreigners have some negative or at least incorrect aspects. In this way we come to the next argument.

3. Gypsies have had a negative image for centuries, regardless what they were called. Combatting discrimination cannot be done by just attaching a different label. Prejudices are then very likely to be transfered to the new name.

Alongside with negative associations when thinking about Gypsies, there were also positive, often romantic, associations connected with them. “Gypsy music” is generally highly esteemed and newspapers, which otherwise use the “political correct” term for Gypsies, still write about “Gypsy music” (Zigeunermusik), since it has already become a well-recognised label. In Germany several societies (generally connected with the carnival) have named themselves “Zigeuner”; they would certainly not have done so if the term had only a negative connotation.

Not only is nothing (positive) gained by renaming, but the moral pressure connected with this provides yet a further reason for rejecting Gypsies. The establishment of taboos often provokes counter- reactions.

4. It is certainly wrong to assert that the Nazis brought the term “Zigeuner” into discredit. The Nazis had attached far more negative aspects to the image of Jews than were associated with them before. Nobody, however, would therefore demand that the name “Jude” be dropped in German.

As some of you may know, the federal government of Germany plans to errect a memorial for the Gypsy victims of the Nazi terror in Berlin. Since the “Zentralrat Deutscher Sinti und Roma” (Central Council of German Sinti and Roma) is fighting fiercely against the term “Zigeuner” in the inscription of the memorial, an oppositional Sinti group is defending the term. In order to counter the argument that Nazis had discredited the name and as a compromise, the responsible state minister of cultural affairs proposed to have the inscription in English and then use the term “Gypsies”.

It is just folk-etymology to trace the word “Zigeuner” back to “Ziehgauner” (a strolling crook). To use that as an argument against the term is not simply ignorance: since similar terms (Cigan and so forth) like “Zigeuner” are used in Slavonic languages, the term could not possibly be derived from “Ziehgauner”.

By the way, the special German usage “Sinti & Roma” – in a global context itself an rather unusual designation for an ethnic group (x and y connected with an “and”) – reflects the fact, that Sinti don’t want to be lumped together with Roma and therefore don’t want to be called by the same name.

5. The term “Sinti & Roma” in Germany has not yet become so colloquial that the majority of the population could use the terms correctly in grammatical terms (singular-plural, masculine-feminine) or even know the difference between Sinti and Roma. Thus newspapers very often write quite incorrectly about “Sinti and Roma” when refering to some Gypsies or even to countries where hardly any Sinti live.

“Zigeuner” have their position in German folklore and culture as they certainly have in other countries, too. One cannot replace the term “Zigeuner” in proverbs, sayings, songs, geographic names etc. by “Sinti & Roma”. One would make Gypsies much more alien by calling them “new names” than they have been hitherto.

When in historical documents “Zigeuner” occur, one cannot declare them to be Sinti, Roma or Sinti and Roma. Sometimes the term “Zigeuner” is also used for Gypsy-like groups (for instance the Jenische).

6. Just to give Gypsies (and not Gadje) the right to call themselves by outsider names, would mean something like George Orwell’s “double-think”. Should “native speakers” who had “invented” the terms “Gypsies”, “Zigeuner” and so forth, not be allowed to use a word of their own language, while others should ? This is certainly not easy to explain to the average citizen.

The arguments discussed above were those generally brought forward in connection with the subject. But there are certainly other reasons which are not uttered openly. Perhaps the fighters for “political correctness”, both among Gypsies and Gadje are not even fully aware of them.

One of the reasons seems to be to gain or exercise power. An ethnic minority (Gypsies) and a political minority (persons with an anti-authoritarian ideology and a strong rejection of the “establishment”) try to apply moral pressure in a field, where a “victory” seems easily to be achieved. Besides the social-psychological explanations for such behaviour, a victory, in the case of Gypsy organizations, is thought to be a means of gathering more followers. A strengthened organization has a better chance, for example, to obtain financial resources.

I would like to finish my contribution with a quotation from a collection of essays by the German-Romanian writer Herta Müller („Der Staub ist blind – die Sonne ein Krüppel. Zur Situation der Zigeuner in Rumänien“, in: „Hunger und Seide“ (Reinbek bei Hamburg 1997, p.153, my own translation): „I went to Romania with the word „Roma“, used it at the beginning during conversations and encountered a lack of understanding everywhere. ‘The word is hypocritical’, I was told, ‘we are Gypsies, and the word is good, as far as we are treated well.’”

A struggle against discrimination needs much energy. One should not waste energy on a battle about or against words, especially when the arguments in favour are rather weak.

Nici rom, nici rrom. Tzigan! Orice incercare de schimbare a denumirii mi se pare ipocrita sau chiar rauvoitoare.

exergy33, lucrarea pe care o citezi e interesanta, cine e autorul? Dar sursa? Se gaseste pe net?

Nici rom, nici rrom. Tzigan!

Molti italiani credono che ci sia coincidenza tra il popolo Rom e il popolo Romeno e avallano questa loro convinzione considerando il termine "Rom" come un'abbreviazione di "Romeno". In realtà "Rom" significa "Persona", mentre "Romeno" significa "abitante della Romania". Quindi un Rom può avere nazionalità romena, ma sicuramente non tutti i Romeni sono Rom. In Italia si stima che siano presenti 160.000 Rom e 1.000.000 di Romeni[citazione necessaria]. Da ciò si desume che almeno 840.000 Romeni presenti in Italia non sono Rom.

( Cla, multumesc pentru linkuri )

Auzi, niciodata UE nu ar sprijini formarea unei tari formate dintr-un popor care nu e in stare sa conduca nici macar o comuna, dapai o tara. Asa ca temerile astea, cum ca UE creeaza un stat pentru tigani sunt nefondate. Singurii vinovati pentru chestia asta suntem noi, romanii, prin inactivitatea noastra. Nimic din ce se intampla acum nu ar fi fost posibil daca romanii luau atitudinea corecta... Asa ca uniunile astea par evidente unuia care chiar nu stie cum functioneaza politica. Si din moment ce ungurii nu au obtinut si nu or sa obtina autonomie, desi sunt mult mai organizati decat tiganii si au o concentratie mult mai mare in zonele lor, nu vad cum ar obtine tiganii asa ceva. Iar despre despartirea in regiuni istorice... ma faci sa rad. E in dezinteresul tuturor (UE, romani, tigani, americani, afaceristi, teroristi etc.) sa apara dezbinari si framantari politice in aceasta zona.

tin sa specific ca BOZGORUL G SOROS, M Isarescu , A Plesu si P Roman sunt toti masoni....

Si evrei. Si sunt convins ca daca ne uitam cu atentie, si templieri!

Romani, Vlax
A language of Romania
... sper sa nu va doara capul citind informatiile date de acel link
Iar daca va mai ramas curaj intrati si aici
later edit

Felicitari d-lui Soros & Co asa cum ne-a obisnuit i-a "iesit" si de data aceasta. O declaratie a rromului Costica Argint :Demografia se va schimba in Romania: tiganii vor ajunge, daca nu majoritari, cel putin egali cu romanii. E bine sa fie prieteni.” Cea mai simpla si eficienta arma, producatoare de placeri, forta si probleme sociale "DEMOGRAFIA".

pana aici frate....asa nu se mai poate, trebuie sa punem piciorul in prag sa facem ceva

... copii

Nu vad de ce te enervezi in halul asta. E o afirmatie perfect realista si e bazata pe studii de ritmuri de crestere a populatiei.

si cam in cat timp tiganii vor fi majoritari conform acestor studii de crestere a populatiei !?

Tot mai multa lume este nemultumita de confuzia nefasta pe care o fac multi straini cu privire la numele Romania si rrom.

Pasionata fiind de etimologia cuvintelor am incercat sa aflu mai multe despre tigani, despre limba si obiceiurile lor, despre evolutia clanurile/grupurilor si breslelor lor.
M-a intrigat un amanunt deloc de lasat deoparte: atestarea numelui rrom/rom in limbile europene, adica ale limbilor vorbite de locuitorii care au in tara lor minoritati tiganesti.
Si intradevar e foarte ciudat ca pe teritoriul Europei nu exista atestari documentare in care sa apara scris cuvintul rom/roma ... sau un cuvint asemanator pentru a-i desemna pe tigani.
Li s-a spus in tot felul, numai rromi/romi ... NU.
E ciudat ca dintr-o data intr-o Europa in care toate tarile au minoritati tiganesti, sa se nasca peste noapte termenul rom/roma people/rroma , si in mod automat toti tiganii lumii: gypsies, zingari, tsigans, zigeuners, cigani, sinti, gitanos,کولی, kalderash, Цыгане, manush, रोमानी, yenish, ... sa fie desemnati cu acest nume.

Tiganii, ca grup etnic, nu au avut constiinta numelui de rrom/rroma ... cu exceptia tiganilor din marea Britanie , tiganii Romanichal ... dar si aceea discutabila.
M-ar interesa sa aflu daca cineva dintre voi are cunostinta de existenta unor manuscrise vechi in care tiganii sa fie consemnati sub numele de rom/roma/romali/...

Romani, Vlax
A language of Romania
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=rmy

... sper sa nu va doara capul citind informatiile date de acel link

Iar daca va mai ramas curaj intrati si aici
http://civicmedia.ro/acm/index.php?option=...22&Itemid=1

later edit

... inceputurile Europei sunt la Roma (adica la orasul facut de tigani), ...toate drumurile duc la Roma ... adica la tigani, ... Vaticanul, papa si crestinismul catolic ... tot tiganesti, ... Imperiul roman, Romance language (spaniola, franceza, italiana) ...adica tot tiganesti; ... Sfantul Imperiu romano-german, a...adica tigani si germani, ...

.......(nu vorbesc de ignoranti sau prosti, care-s peste tot)

Eu zic ca Europa occidentala si-a dat cu stangu' ndreptu', ... inceputurile Europei sunt la Roma (adica la orasul facut de tigani), ...toate drumurile duc la Roma ... adica la tigani, ... Vaticanul, papa si crestinismul catolic ... tot tiganesti, ... Imperiul roman, Romance language (spaniola, franceza, italiana) ...adica tot tiganesti; ... Sfantul Imperiu romano-german, a...adica tigani si germani, ...

Şi mafia siciliană nici nu e a lor.

asa ca rebrandingul tiganilor in rromi sau alte aberatii nu le va spala istoria si nici pacatele, va induce doar confuzie si suparare in randul romanilor

pt mine exista o singura incercare de re-branding - din tigani, ceea ce au fost, sunt si vor fi in continuare in rromi/romi, o chestie nesustenabila si care va sfarsi ca orice alta decizie proasta si ipocrita

sa luam populatia "afro-americana" - s-au chinuit atit de mult sa fie re-denumiti pt ca li se parea ca sutn apelati in forme peiorative... chestia e ca oricum ar fi redenumiti, culoarea pielii nu se schimba, si daca intrebi un copil fara multa educatie, va spune ce vede un nene sau o tanti de culoare neagra; daca zici negru suna peiorativ, la fel cum daca zici blonda suna a "prostuta/naiva", sau daca zici neamt aproape spui inginer...

in timp ce unii si-au facut din nume un renume, si sunt mandri de eticheta lor (drept pt care nu au nevoie de rebranding)... ceilalti incearca subterfugii ca sa scape de eticheta trecutului...

Vlach Gypsies of Hungary - Orientation


Identification. Vlach Gypsies are one branch of the Romany-speaking Gypsies who lived for several hundred years in Romania until they began migrating to other parts of the world in the middle of the nineteenth century. The majority of Vlach Gypsies now live in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Romania. In Hungary they are mostly found in the Eastern and northern regions of the country. The origin of the ethnonym "Rom" is obscure, though one Hungarian scholar has speculatively suggested it might derive from the north Indian Dom caste. The term "vlach" (Hungarian olah ) derives from the association of these Gypsies with the old Romanian principality of Wallachia. The Hungarian word cigany (Gypsy) is found in the Hungarian language from the Middle Ages and is cognate with terms for Gypsies in other European languages such as German zigeuner. "Cigany" has negative connotations of deceit and laziness. The term "Rom" distinguishes Vlach Gypsies from other Gypsy groups in Hungary such as Romanian-speaking "Boyash" Gypsies and Hungarian speaking "Romungro" Gypsies.

Location. Gypsies tend not to rely directly on the natural environment for their livelihood; instead, they are dependent on human environments, so they live wherever the non-Gypsy environment provides them with the human resources they need to carry out their economic activities. Since at least the early 1960s, when nomadism was suppressed in Hungary, the Rom (like most Gypsies in eastern Europe) have been more sedentary. Today, Rom are as likely to be found in towns as in villages, but almost always in the poorer areas. Large concentrations of Rom reside in the inner cities of Budapest, Pecs, and Miskolc.

Demography. Approximately 100,000 Rom live in Hungary today; this figure accounts for 20 percent of all the Gypsies in the country. When the Rom migrated into Hungary after their liberation from slavery in the Romanian principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia, some moved on to western Europe and even to the New World. The majority remained in the countries that came under Russian control after World War II. We do not know what percentage of the world's Rom live in modern Hungary.

Linguistic Affiliation. Rom speak Romany (also spelled "Romani") or Romanes as they say. The vocabulary items of the Romany spoken by any one group of Rom are deeply Influenced by the country where they happen to reside. The syntactical structure remains more constant. Romany spoken in Hungary belongs to the Balkanic Language Group. Some 800 words or so of its basic vocabulary (words that are shared throughout all variants of Romany spoken around the world today) are of north Indian, Persian, and Armenian origin. Romany spoken in Hungary seems to have become recently homogenized, with the merging of alternate dialects, possibly as an expression of growing ethnic self-awareness. Scholars disagree about the extent to which Romany across the world may be treated as one language—certainly Rom manage to communicate in it wherever they find one another.



Read more: Orientation - Vlach Gypsies of Hungary http://www.everyculture.com/Europe/Vlach-G...l#ixzz22bKxszXE