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Rehael
Oricum e off topic si nu ma intereseaza in momentul asta; poate ar fi mai bine sa deschizi un subiect despre el in alta parte.
Dar ce mi se pare mie interesant este ca crestinii tai de acasa nu par sa fie deloc in topul preferintelor tale... Daca manifestai un cat de cat respect fata de ei nu cred ca ai mai fi facut bataia de joc de pana acum. Sau poate ma insel... smile.gif

In orice caz, nu ar fi deloc rau daca te-ai stradui sa judeci lucrurile in functie de contextul de care apartin. Nu-mi dau seama daca este rea vointa din partea ta cand nu faci asa, sau pur si simplu neputinta. Oricum este o obisnuinta daunatoare care duce la toate diferentele de interpretare dintre tine si majoritatea crestinilor de pe aici.
shapeshifter
QUOTE(abis @ 21 Jul 2009, 12:24 PM) *
Uite, ca sa iti arat ca nu ii bag pe toti crestinii in aceeasi oala, iti prezint pe unul dintre cei fata de ale caror opinii nutresc cel mai profund respect: John Shelby Spong

Gasesti pe YouTube mai multe informatii.

Phi Beta Kappa... hmmmmm...

<<+>>

iarna nu-i ca vara şi nici şchiopu ca ologu...

ps: crezi că prostia se poate reforma?




de John Chryssavgis auzişi buey reformatatule?
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 21 Jul 2009, 02:48 PM) *
Dar ce mi se pare mie interesant este ca crestinii tai de acasa nu par sa fie deloc in topul preferintelor tale...

Nu-i pot da exemplu, conform standardelor de aici, nu sunt crestini adevarati: merg la biserica din an in paste, nu prea tin posturile, nu s-au spovedit de ani de zile si asa mai departe.
QUOTE
Nu-mi dau seama daca este rea vointa din partea ta cand nu faci asa, sau pur si simplu neputinta. Oricum este o obisnuinta daunatoare care duce la toate diferentele de interpretare dintre tine si majoritatea crestinilor de pe aici.

Apreciez tonul moderat pe care l-ai folosit acum. thumb_yello.gif

Ma stradui sa judec lucrurile in functie de context, dar ce sa fac daca ajung la alte concluzii decat voi? Te asigur, si sper sa ma crezi pe cuvant, ca nu-i vorba de rea-vointa. Pur si simplu judecata mea la aceste concluzii ma duce. Si nu am impresia ca as avea scapari de judecata.
noi
La moartea unui gigant
Rehael
QUOTE(abis @ 21 Jul 2009, 05:02 PM) *
Nu-i pot da exemplu, conform standardelor de aici, nu sunt crestini adevarati: merg la biserica din an in paste, nu prea tin posturile, nu s-au spovedit de ani de zile si asa mai departe.



Pai nici John Shelby Spong nu corespunde standardelor de aici, adica ale majoritatii de crestini ortodocsi care suntem, si totusi l-ai dat de exemplu. De fapt unde apare pe forum "standardul" asta de care vorbesti ca eu il caut si nu dau de el nicicum? smile.gif
Pe de alta parte dupa cum ii descrii pe crestinii tai de acasa, imi amintesti de o multime de sfinti ortodocsi care dintr-un motiv sau altul au procedat exact la fel ca ei... wub.gif



QUOTE
Ma stradui sa judec lucrurile in functie de context, dar ce sa fac daca ajung la alte concluzii decat voi? Te asigur, si sper sa ma crezi pe cuvant, ca nu-i vorba de rea-vointa. Pur si simplu judecata mea la aceste concluzii ma duce. Si nu am impresia ca as avea scapari de judecata.


Pai uite care-i treaba. Chiar daca nu ne dam seama bine care-i cauza, totusi impresia care o lasi este ca o faci din rea vointa. Si in cazuri din astea in care reusesti sa ajungi la concluzii complet opuse decat noi si nu te poti abtine sa dai drumul "pasarelei", trebuie sa-ti asumi consecintele, care deja ai invatat cum se manifesta. smoke.gif


@noi

Iti multumesc personal pentru informatia afisata!
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 21 Jul 2009, 10:21 PM) *
Pai nici John Shelby Spong nu corespunde standardelor de aici, adica ale majoritatii de crestini ortodocsi care suntem, si totusi l-ai dat de exemplu.

Ai dreptate. Imi asum vina.
QUOTE
unde apare pe forum "standardul" asta de care vorbesti ca eu il caut si nu dau de el nicicum?

Pai ce criterii de cautare ai folosit cand ai interogat arhiva? unsure.gif
QUOTE
Chiar daca nu ne dam seama bine care-i cauza, totusi impresia care o lasi este ca o faci din rea vointa.

Te asigur ca nu-i pic de rea-vointa. Crede-ma pe cuvant. Daca nu o poti face, nu stiu cu ce argumente as putea sa te conving. Daca vrei sunt dispus sa ne intalnim si personal, la vreo intalnire forumistica sau in ce mediu vrei tu, si sa te asigur fata in fata ca nu am nimic cu persoana ta sau a oricaruia de pe aici, ci ca doar imi expun parerile fara nicio intentie rea.
QUOTE
Si in cazuri din astea in care reusesti sa ajungi la concluzii complet opuse decat noi si nu te poti abtine sa dai drumul "pasarelei", trebuie sa-ti asumi consecintele, care deja ai invatat cum se manifesta

Daca tu crezi ca ma intimideaza faptul ca recurgi la atacuri la persoana, desi nu ma cunosti, si ca de teama unor astfel de atacuri voi inceta sa imi spun parerile si sa mi le argumentez, te inseli. smile.gif

Sincer, tu ai renunta sa expui lucrurile in care crezi doar pentru ca cineva din spatele unui nickname te face cum ii vine la gura...? Ma indoiesc. De ce crezi ca altii ar reactiona altfel?
Rehael
Ai intrebat ce sa faci, iar eu ti-am raspuns ca nu ai decat sa-ti asumi si consecintele, ca asa mi se pare normal, nu ca sa te intimidezi, ca nu-i treaba mea ce decizii ei tu la urma urmei.
Desi tu consideri ca sunt atacuri la persoana, acele comentarii pe care le primesti in replica, sunt, cel putin din partea mea, concluzii la modului tau de argumenta, pentru ca, nu-i asa, orice judecata emite omul din sine, vorbeste la urma urmei despre modul in care se manifesta el, si nu exista alt mod de ai arata ce greseste decat indicandu-i direct, sa spunem, tara de caracter. In domeniul spiritualului in care te tot bagi de buna voie, nu ai incotro, devii vrei nu vrei subiect de dezbatere. Poti sa intelegi lucrul asta? Daca ai citit Biblia nu ai vazut ca un procent foarte mare din informatie este alocat tocmai caracterului uman?
La urma urmei si tu te legi de noi: ba ca nu ai vazut obrazul intors, ba ca nu primesti si camasa etc. Ceea ce este exact fapta pe care o reprosezi tu altora. Adica pentru ce ai dori sa vezi obrazul intors?... Deci chiar daca esti constient ca lovesti poate nu esti constient ca esti rau, si ma simt datoare sa-ti spun, chiar daca nu-ti vine bine. Adica daca am intors obrazul tu crezi ca e obligatoriu sa tac din gura? Nu-i obligatoriu, o sa-ti spun ca esti rau de cate ori o sa fie cazul.


QUOTE
Pai ce criterii de cautare ai folosit cand ai interogat arhiva?


Exact asa cum ai sugerat "credincios + stas (sau) +model" si nu am gasit nicicum sablonul care zici tu ca exista.
Oricum in realitate nu exista un sablon de tipul pe care l-ai sugerat tu, chiar daca zici ca pe forum ar fi unul.
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 21 Jul 2009, 11:55 PM) *
orice judecata emite omul din sine, vorbeste la urma urmei despre modul in care se manifesta el, si nu exista alt mod de ai arata ce greseste decat indicandu-i direct, sa spunem, tara de caracter

Cu ideea asta nu pot sa fiu de acord. Sa-ti spun si de ce: atunci cand emite o idee, nu conteaza daca persoana in cauza are toate defectele pe care le vrei tu, ci masura in care ideea este sau nu argumentata. Chiar daca as fi cel mai putin moral individ de pe planeta asta, chiar daca as fi cel mai mare criminal al tuturor timpurilor, atunci cand formulez o judecata rationala, logica, niciunul dintre defectele mele nu influenteaza valoarea de adevar a concluziei la care am ajuns, ci doar soliditatea argumentelor pe care m-am bazat. In mod analog, presupunand ca tu ai fi cea mai ingenua zana imaginabila, inzestrata cu cele mai alese si nobile calitati morale, daca formulezi o judecata gresita, vei fi corectata. Caci justetea concluziei la care ai ajuns este independenta de calitile tale morale, depinde doar de utilizarea unor argumente corecte.

Daca Pitagora ar fi fost un criminal de cea mai joasa speta, teorema lui ar fi mai putin valabila?
QUOTE
si tu te legi de noi: ba ca nu ai vazut obrazul intors, ba ca nu primesti si camasa etc

Asta nu inseamna ca ma leg de tine, ci doar ca reactionez la agresivitatea verbala cu care ma ataci. Eu nu atac primul niciodata, atunci cand discut cu tine.
QUOTE
pentru ce ai dori sa vezi obrazul intors?

Dar nu vreau neaparat sa-l vad. Doar semnalez o lipsa de consecventa... Nu ma deranjeaza rautatea cu care raspunzi uneori (apreciez ca astazi putem discuta pe un ton mult mai moderat!), pentru ca eu receptez aceasta rautate ca pe un semn de slabiciune al cuiva care a ramas fara alta replica, si in momentul in care argumentele mele primesc drept raspuns un atac la persoana consider am castigat disputa.
QUOTE
in realitate nu exista un sablon de tipul pe care l-ai sugerat tu

Mesajele de pe UC sugereaza foarte clar ca un crestin adevarat este doar unul care respecta cu sfintenie toate poruncile pe care le-a dat Isus. Am intalnit ideea in special la Clopotel (si nu doar la el) si nu l-a contrazis nimeni, dintre cei credinciosi.


PS: Uite, asa pe fuga, am gasit chiar la tine: Pentru un crestin credinta inseamna in primul rand angajamentul ca va respecta poruncile primite
Ideea, exprimata in diverse variante, ca un crestin este cel care respecta toate poruncile, iar cel care nu le respecta nu este crestin, am intalnit-o la multi credinciosi.
Rehael
Cand o sa discutam despre calcule strict matematice iti promit ca nu vei mai avea parte de neplacerile reclamate. rolleyes.gif Desigur acest lucru se poate intampla si la genul de discutie practicat in locul de fata...

QUOTE
Daca Pitagora ar fi fost un criminal de cea mai joasa speta, teorema lui ar fi mai putin valabila?


Si daca teorema lui este adevarata, acest lucru ar trebui sa neutralizeze niste posibile acte criminale savarsite? Sunt doar subiecte de discutie separate. Iar eu ma refeream doar la unul dintre ele, am crezut ca se intelege... Daca ai bagat de seama in Biblie nu-i scrisa si tabla inmultirii, cu alte cuvinte nu a fost creata pentru a ajuta la efectuarea calculelor de tip matematic.

LE Ceea ce iei tu drept rautate din partea mea nu este decat revolta impotriva meschinariilor de care dai dovada, si nu exista nici o porunca care sa ma opreasca sa fac asa, dimpotriva.
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 22 Jul 2009, 12:42 AM) *
Si daca teorema lui este adevarata, acest lucru ar trebui sa neutralizeze niste posibile acte criminale savarsite?

Aici nu am facut altceva decat sa formulez teoreme; daca sunt gresite, ma astept sa fie combatute altfel decat replicand "esti un criminal" - ca sa pastram conventia limbajului de fata. Pur si simplu nu conteaza daca sunt sau nu criminal, ci doar daca teoremele aflate in discutie sunt corecte sau nu. Iar aici subiectul sunt ateii, nu duc aceasta discutie la Despre Iubirea lui Dumnezeu, Psaltirea in versuri sau pe alte topicuri unde nu se discuta despre atei...
QUOTE
Daca ai bagat de seama in Biblie nu-i scrisa si tabla inmultirii, cu alte cuvinte nu a fost creata pentru a ajuta la efectuarea calculelor de tip matematic.

Matematica am utilizat-o in sen metaforic. smile.gif

Nu uita de la ce am plecat: spuneam ca in lipsa unui instrument de verificare, ceea ce unii prezinta ca pe o certitudine s-ar putea sa fie departe de realitate.

Prin urmare, daca faptele si intamplarile descrise in biblie nu rezista unei verificari serioase, exista posibilitatea ca ele sa nu fi existat cu adevarat. Chiar nu cred ca din atata lucru trebuie sa te superi...
Rehael
QUOTE(abis @ 22 Jul 2009, 01:00 AM) *
Aici nu am facut altceva decat sa formulez teoreme; daca sunt gresite, ma astept sa fie combatute altfel decat replicand "esti un criminal" - ca sa pastram conventia limbajului de fata. Pur si simplu nu conteaza daca sunt sau nu criminal, ci doar daca teoremele aflate in discutie sunt corecte sau nu. Iar aici subiectul sunt ateii, nu duc aceasta discutie la Despre Iubirea lui Dumnezeu, Psaltirea in versuri sau pe alte topicuri unde nu se discuta despre atei...


Asa ziceam si eu, ca nu trebuia sa aduci in discutie credinciosii si preotii lor. thumb_yello.gif

QUOTE
Matematica am utilizat-o in sen metaforic. smile.gif


Asa, si cu ce schimba sensul la ce discutam?? rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Nu uita de la ce am plecat: spuneam ca in lipsa unui instrument de verificare, ceea ce unii prezinta ca pe o certitudine s-ar putea sa fie departe de realitate.


In fine, atata timp cat nici o "tabara" nu are instrumente de verificare sau alte argumente care sa contrazica, eu zic ca ramane strict problema lor.

QUOTE
Prin urmare, daca faptele si intamplarile descrise in biblie nu rezista unei verificari serioase, exista posibilitatea ca ele sa nu fi existat cu adevarat. Chiar nu cred ca din atata lucru trebuie sa te superi...


Sa zicem ca poate totusi nu incerci sa dai uitarii adevaratele motive care m-au suparat...
Oricum se verifica informatiile cu privire la caracterul omului... Nu stiu daca acest lucru te poate linisti. ohyeah.gif
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 22 Jul 2009, 01:16 AM) *
In fine, atata timp cat nici o "tabara" nu are instrumente de verificare sau alte argumente care sa contrazica, eu zic ca ramane strict problema lor.

Atat timp cat pastreaza respectivele convingeri neverificabile pentru ei, da, ramane strict problema lor. In momentul in care incearca sa le raspandeasca si in randul altora, in mod firesc sunt chestionati asupra lor. Iar atunci cand in public isi permit sa-i judece pe cei care nu le impartasesc, se expun riscului de a fi la randul lor judecati.
Rehael
Una-i sa fie cineva judecat si alta sa fie cineva supus deja la "teste nucleare", dar nu cel care, ...poate, merita sa fie judecat, ci altcineva care s-a nimerit dupa... rofl.gif
abis
Tu stii ce vrei sa spui... Si ce-i atat de amuzant in ce-ai spus... unsure.gif
Cla
Asta doar ea pricepe ce ar fi atât de amuzant. Abis, îti admir rabdarea...
Rehael
QUOTE(abis @ 23 Jul 2009, 01:58 AM) *
Tu stii ce vrei sa spui... Si ce-i atat de amuzant in ce-ai spus... unsure.gif


Vroiam sa-ti arat ca nu-ti port pica pentru decizia ta te a te razbuna pe mine(de exemplu) pentru ca cineva in trecut te-a atacat; pentru ca asta a fost reprosul tau, ca ai procedat cum ai procedat pentru ca ai fi fost atacat intaiul, numai ca sigur nu de catre mine.
Cucu Mucu
QUOTE(Rehael @ 21 Jul 2009, 11:55 PM) *
Daca ai citit Biblia nu ai vazut ca un procent foarte mare din informatie este alocat tocmai caracterului uman?


Daca ai citit biblia, nu ai remarcat ca majoritatea covarsitoarea a informatiei este alocata tocmai caracterului sacru, suprauman, a existentei umane, si nicidecum caracterului uman? jamie.gif
abis
Draga mea, in discutiile dintre noi doi tu nu am fost niciodata primul care a facut referire la persoana celuilalt. Poti verifica: pe niciunul dintre topicurile unde scriu, fie ca este vorba despre Dezbateri, Filosofie, Politica sau oricare altul, nu recurg la atacuri la persoana; doar daca sunt atacat in mod grobian decid uneori sa ripostez. Cred ca tinzi sa-mi atribui mie pacatele tale.


In alta ordine de idei, am gasit intr-un colt al imensitatii internetului un articol care m-a pus pe ganduri. In poti citi aici, daca vrei.

Despre ce este vorba? Majoritatea dintre noi presupunem ca atunci cand cineva are o parere gresita, daca ii dovedim ca se inseala, ar trebui sa abandoneze eroarea pe care o facea pana atunci si sa imbratiseze adevarul. Daca oamenii cred ceva ce nu-i adevarat, atunci expunerea la adevar ar trebui sa-i faca sa-si abandoneze credintele gresite.
Ei bine, se pare ca cei mai multi dintre noi nu reactioneaza deloc in acest fel. De fapt, informatiile pe care le primesc ii pot face pe respectivii sa fie si mai convinsi de ceea ce in mod gresit cred, acest fenomen fiind denumit "Efectul de recul".

De exemplu, asta inseamna ca daca ii spui unui credul ca astrologia (sau orice alta nascocire "spirituala") e gresita si enumeri motivele, el ar putea chiar sa fie si mai convins de veridicitatea ei, nu mai putin convins.

Spune autorul articolului:

I exhibit it myself sometimes. Faced with opponents who are vigorously disagreeing with me I can feel myself being driven to a hardened, more extreme, position than I would otherwise hold. In other words, when presented with uncomfortable facts that contradict my point of view, I sometimes work even harder to refute or rationalized those facts. That's more comforting than being forced to admit I'm wrong.
My opponents do this too.


hmm.gif
Rehael
QUOTE(abis @ 23 Jul 2009, 10:11 AM) *
Draga mea, in discutiile dintre noi doi tu nu am fost niciodata primul care a facut referire la persoana celuilalt. Poti verifica: pe niciunul dintre topicurile unde scriu, fie ca este vorba despre Dezbateri, Filosofie, Politica sau oricare altul, nu recurg la atacuri la persoana; doar daca sunt atacat in mod grobian decid uneori sa ripostez. Cred ca tinzi sa-mi atribui mie pacatele tale.


De cate ori trebuie sa-ti explic ca ce faceai tu era cu mult mai rau? Un atac la persoana macar este pe fata, dar tu ai fost pervers! jamie.gif

LE Si nu mai incerca sa duci discutia pe alte meleaguri, pentru ca tu sau altineva nu ati reusit sa demonstrati ca Biblia este falsa ci doar ca o puteti interpreta si altfel...
Cucu Mucu
Poti demonstra ca povestea lui Harap Alb este falsa? Poti demonstra ca Frumoasa din padurea adormita este falsa? rofl.gif Poti demonstra ca Rig-Veda este falsa?


Abis, perversa mica ce esti! roflmao.gif roflmao.gif
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 23 Jul 2009, 10:24 AM) *
nu ati reusit sa demonstrati ca Biblia este falsa ci doar ca o puteti interpreta si altfel...

Dar nu te contrazic deloc. Exact asta am facut, am aratat o alta interpretare a unor texte biblice decat cea oficiala, daca putem sa-i spunem asa. Interpretare care mie mi se pare mult mai plauzibila. smile.gif

Pe de alta parte, daca aduci in discutie "falsitatea bibliei", ce anume te-ar convinge ca intamplarile descrise acolo nu corespund in totalitate realitatii? Contradictiile dintre diferitele parti ale bibliei, care nu pot fi simultan adevarate? Profetiile biblice neimplinite? Diferentele dintre textul biblic si realitatea imediata?

In orice caz, in orice conversatie sau dezbatere sarcina de a aduce dovezi ii apartine celui care face o afirmatie, nu celui care este sceptic. In cazul de fata, este in sarcina celui care sustine ca tot ce scrie in biblie este adevarat, sa-si demonstreze spusele; cel care afirma (o teorie, o teorema, un asa-zis adevar istoric etc) trebuie sa vina cu dovezi, pentru a fi crezut.

Dar daca vrei sa discutam despre veridicitatea bibliei, spune-mi. Eu sunt pregatit. smile.gif
Rehael
QUOTE(abis @ 23 Jul 2009, 11:11 AM) *
Dar nu te contrazic deloc. Exact asta am facut, am aratat o alta interpretare a unor texte biblice decat cea oficiala, daca putem sa-i spunem asa. Interpretare care mie mi se pare mult mai plauzibila. smile.gif


Pai atunci accepta aceeasi"logica" si in ceea ce priveste persoana ta si nu te mai supara daca concluziile despre tine la care se ajunge sunt care sunt, pentru ca asa ni se par si noua, foarte plauzibile. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Pe de alta parte, daca aduci in discutie "falsitatea bibliei", ce anume te-ar convinge ca intamplarile descrise acolo nu corespund in totalitate realitatii? Contradictiile dintre diferitele parti ale bibliei, care nu pot fi simultan adevarate? Profetiile biblice neimplinite? Diferentele dintre textul biblic si realitatea imediata?


Nu ai argumente ca sa-mi demonstrezi aceste lucruri deci nu ma poti convinge. smile.gif

QUOTE
In orice caz, in orice conversatie sau dezbatere sarcina de a aduce dovezi ii apartine celui care face o afirmatie, nu celui care este sceptic. In cazul de fata, este in sarcina celui care sustine ca tot ce scrie in biblie este adevarat, sa-si demonstreze spusele; cel care afirma (o teorie, o teorema, un asa-zis adevar istoric etc) trebuie sa vina cu dovezi, pentru a fi crezut.


Trebuie sa accepti ca sunt cazuri in care nimeni nu trebuie sa dovedeasca nimic. Ca daca tu imi spui ca iti iubesti parintii eu nu trebuie sa-ti cer dovezi pentru asta, si nici nu trebuie sa-ti dovedesc eu tie daca ai dreptate sau nu sa ii iubesti. Eventual as putea sa-mi dau seama daca e asa sau nu din comportamentul tau vizavi de ei, dar nici atunci nu as prea avea dreptul sa-mi dau cu parerea, la fel si tu in cazul credinciosilor.
Rehael
QUOTE(Cucu Mucu @ 23 Jul 2009, 10:49 AM) *
Poti demonstra ca povestea lui Harap Alb este falsa? Poti demonstra ca Frumoasa din padurea adormita este falsa? rofl.gif Poti demonstra ca Rig-Veda este falsa?


Banuiesc ca tu nu poti daca pui asemenea intrebari.
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 23 Jul 2009, 12:48 PM) *
Pai atunci accepta aceeasi"logica" si in ceea ce priveste persoana ta

Vezi ca tu esti cea razbunatoare? smile.gif

Parerea mea este ca nu poti trage nicio concluzie asupra caracterului cuiva stiindu-i doar opiniile despre unele teze religioase. Dar daca tu crezi altfel, treaba ta... Insa nu persoana mea este in discutie pe forumul asta, ci daca argumentele pe care le aduc sunt corecte.
QUOTE
Nu ai argumente ca sa-mi demonstrezi aceste lucruri deci nu ma poti convinge

Nu am altceva de facut decat sa-ti aduc citate din biblie. wink.gif
Pornesti de la premiza ca nu pot sa-ti demonstrez si ca nu am argumente, dar nu ai de unde sa stii asta de la inceput. Poate ca am, poate ca nu, dar nu poti fi sigura daca nu le-ai auzit... Ti-am spus, daca vrei sa discutam pe argumente da-mi un semn si sunt gata.
QUOTE
daca tu imi spui ca iti iubesti parintii eu nu trebuie sa-ti cer dovezi pentru asta

Nici eu nu-ti cer dovezi ca sa te cred ca il iubesti pe Dumnezeul biblic... Iti cer dovezi numai daca incerci sa ma convingi ca exista cu adevarat. In postarile pe care ti le-am adresat nu vei gasi nimic de genul unei cereri imperative; eu nu-ti spun tie sa nu mai crezi pentru ca n-ai dovezi, ci vorbesc doar despre mine, spun ca eu nu pot crede in lipsa dovezilor; ce crezi tu este treaba ta.
QUOTE
sunt cazuri in care nimeni nu trebuie sa dovedeasca nimic

Bineinteles!
Daca pastrezi credinta pentru tine nu trebuie sa-mi demonstrezi nimic. Daca insa incerci sa ma cinvingi sa o adopt si eu, daca ma judeci in public pentru ca eu nu o am, daca imi impui sa ma comport potrivit perceptelor credintei tale, atunci sunt totusi indreptatit sa pun intrebari in privinta ei. Cat timp nu ma afecteaza in nicun fel, chiar nu cer nimic, nicio dovada, nimanui.
QUOTE
Eventual as putea sa-mi dau seama daca e asa sau nu din comportamentul tau vizavi de ei, dar nici atunci nu as prea avea dreptul sa-mi dau cu parerea, la fel si tu in cazul credinciosilor.

In treacat fie spus, ti-ai dat cu parerea si fara sa stii nimic despre comportamentul meu, candva in trecut. Nu-mi aduc aminte sa-mi fi dat eu cu parerea asupra sentimentelor pe care le ai tu fata de zeul suprem al religiei crestine; am observat doar ca intre teorie si practica exista diferente, ceea ce ar insemna ca, potrivit parerii credinciosilor de aici, nu ai fi crestina cu adevarat. Nu inseamna ca asta este si opinia mea, ci doar ca asta ar fi concluzia potrivit parerilor vehiculate aici. Te rog sa fii atenta si sa nu mai faci confuzii intre parerile mele, pe care le expun si mi le asum direct, si concluziile la care ajungi pornind de la premizele altora.

Ca sa fie mai clar: de multe ori la matematica faci demonstratii prin metoda reducerii la absurd. Spui ca presupunand X ajungem la concluzia Y; daca Y este falsa, rezulta ca X este la randul lui fals. Este ca si cum tu ai fi profesoara de matematica si eu as incepe demonstratia presupunand X..., iar tu ai sari imediat: dar X este fals, stai jos, nota 2!

Opinia mea despre tine, daca vrei sa o stii, este ca esti o credincioasa la fel de buna ori de rea cum sunt majoritatea crestinilor din tara asta; ca ai, ca oricine, calitati si defecte; ca uneori poti fi o interlocutoare cu care este o placere sa discuti, iar altadata o scorpie. Esti culta si sensibila (o dovedesc si fotografiile pe care le aduci pe han), iar ca temperament, probabil esti putin colerica (iar eu sunt flegmatic, si de aici conflictele smile.gif ). Probabil esti singura (adica necasatorita si fara un partener stabil), ai acasa o pisica si lucrezi intr-o institutie de stat. In rest, nu stiu ce sa spun mai multe. Mi-ar placea sa te intalnesc si personal, candva, ca sa imi dau seama daca te-am "citit" bine.
Rehael
QUOTE(abis @ 23 Jul 2009, 01:29 PM) *
Vezi ca tu esti cea razbunatoare? smile.gif


Nu sunt razbunatoare. Am vrut doar sa stii ca tot ceea ce incerci sa demonstrezi o faci doar in deserviciul tau. Ca daca unii au tacut, nu pe principiul "a intoarce obrazul" ci poate mai degraba a aceluia "nu judeca ca sa nu fii judecat", asta nu inseamna ca nu ti-ai creat un deserviciu. Pentru ca, daca prin alte locuri afisezi cumsecadenie, caricaturizand invataturile din Biblie, contrazici faptul ca ai avea totusi aceasta calitate si in profunzimea ta.

LE Pentru ca de fapt asta a insemnat "alta interpretare"... caricaturizare, iar tu nu pari chiar asa de prost ca sa nu stii ce ai facut; "iarta-l Doamne ca nu stie ce face" fiind valabila doar in cazul in care ar fi fost asa. Altfel, ti s-a facut onoarea de a fi considerat totusi o persoana care-i poate intelege si pe altii, nu porneste cu tot egoismul inainte.
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 23 Jul 2009, 01:42 PM) *
caricaturizand invataturile din Biblie contrazici faptul ca ai avea totusi aceasta calitate si in profunzimea ta

Imi pare rau, nu fac decat sa-mi expun parerile. La fel ca si tine. Daca parerile noastre nu coincid, asta este; nu cred ca trebuie sa ne dam in cap unul altuia pentru atata lucru. Asa cum tu ai dreptul sa-ti expui opiniile, il am si eu. Iar opinia despre cutare text religios (sau chiar laic, de ce nu) a cuiva nu este un indiciu indubitabil asupra caracterului acelei persoane.
Rehael
Poate ca nu, dar cand demonstreaza permanent inconsecventa(contrazice caricaturizand, ca mai apoi sa zica uite ce de treaba sunt), singura concluzie este ca nu are mai nimic autentic si nu-i demn de prea multa incredere; poate fi, desigur, doar tolerat dar, sa nu aiba si pretentii de respect pentru opiniile sale pentru ca nu se poate(sau n-are decat sa aiba, dar nu-l va primi, poate decat din partea "ciubotelor" ohyeah.gif ).
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 23 Jul 2009, 02:06 PM) *
sa nu aiba si pretentii de respect pentru opiniile sale pentru ca nu se poate

Ma vad nevoit sa fiu, din nou, de acord cu tine: nu se poate sa ai respect pentru opiniile altcuiva, daca sunt atat de diferite de ale tale. Nu am pretentia sa imi respecti opiniile, asa cum nici eu nu le respect pe ale tale. Sunt convins ca ideile tale sunt tot atat de nocive pe cat crezi tu ca sunt ale mele. Suntem, din punctul asta de vedere, la fel: amandoi suntem convinsi ca ideile celuilalt sunt gresite, periculoase, daunatoare, iar cele proprii nemaipomenite. Si sunt convins de inca un lucru: amandoi suntem la fel de sinceri in demersul pe care il facem prezentand in public ideile proprii si combatandu-le pe ale celuilalt; amandoi suntem animati de aceleasi bune intentii si suntem la fel de hotarati sa nu renuntam.

Nu-mi plac ideile pe care le sustii, nu-mi plac intotdeauna metodele prin care ti le sustii, insa te apreciez pentru determinare, pentru perseverenta, pentru ca nu te dai batuta. Atunci cand "ne batem" in idei si nu in atacuri la persoana esti un adversar redutabil, care imi solicita toata capacitatea de rationament, memoria, atentia, inteligenta...

Esti unul dintre "adversarii" de la care am invatat cate ceva. Daca ai fi aplecata in si mai mare masura spre dezbaterea ideilor si mai putin a persoanelor as fi inca si mai castigat.

Astea fiind spuse, te asigur din nou ca sunt de acord cu tine: nu putem respecta ideile celuilalt. Este ca si cum un liberal ar putea respecta ideile socialiste, ori invers. Nu, fiecare va considera ideile lui bune si pe ale celuilalt periculoase pentru societate. Insa liberalul si socialistul se pot respecta unul pe altul, chiar daca ideile lor politice se bat cap in cap. Pentru ca inainte de a fi liberal sau socialist fiecare este, in fond, tot un om... In acelasi spirit nu vad de ce un ateu si un crestin nu se pot respecta reciproc, chiar daca niciunul nu respecta ideile celuilalt referitoare la religie.
shapeshifter
The Impossible Convergence
by
Frithjof Schuon




ACCORDING to the unanimous conviction of the old Christendom and of all the other traditional branches of humanity, the cause of suffering in the world is the internal disharmony of man—sin, if so preferred—and not just a lack of science or organization. No progress or any tyranny will ever make an end of suffering; only the sanctifica­tion of all men could bring this about, were it in fact possible to realize that state of things and thus to transform the world into a community of contemplatives and into a new earthly paradise. This certainly does not mean that man should not, in conformity with his nature and with simple good sense, attempt to overcome the evils he encounters in the course of his life; for this he requires no injunction whether divine or human. But to seek to establish a certain well-being in a country, with God in view, is one thing, and to seek to institute perfect happiness on earth apart from God is another; in any case the latter aim is foredoomed to failure, precisely because the lasting elimination of our miseries is dependent upon our conformity to the Divine Equilibrium, or upon our establishment in the "Kingdom of Heaven which is within you." As long as men have not realized a sanctifying "inwardness," the abolition of earthly trials is not only impossible, it is not even desirable, because the sinner—"exteriorized" man—has need of suffering in order to expiate his faults and tear himself away from sin or in order to escape from the "outwardness" from which sin derives.[1] From the spiritual point of view, which alone takes account of the true cause of our calamities, evil, by definition, is not what causes us to suffer, it is that which—even when accompanied by a maximum of comfort or of ease, or of "justice" so called—frustrates a maximum of souls as regards their final end.

The whole problem reduces itself to the following nucleus of ques­tions: what is the good of eliminating only the effects, and not the cause, of evil? What is the good of eliminating these effects if the cause remains and continues to produce similar effects indefinitely? What is the good of eliminating the effects of evil to the detriment of the elimination of the cause itself? What is the good of eliminating the effects but at the same time exchanging the cause for another far more pernicious one, to wit, hatred of the supernatural and a passion for the worldly?

In a word: if one combats the calamities of this world without regard for the total truth and the ultimate good, one will be creating incomparably greater calamities, starting off, in fact, with the denial of this truth and the elimination of this good. Those who think they can liberate man from an age-old "frustration" are in fact the ones who impose on him the most radical and irreparable of all frustrations.

The Civitas Dei and worldly progression therefore cannot converge, contrary to what is imagined by those who strive to accommodate the religious message to profane illusions and agitations. "Whoso gathereth not with me, scattereth": this saying, like many others, seems to have become a dead letter, doubtless because it does not belong to "our own time"; nevertheless, as a recent encyclical tells us: "The Church must examine the signs of the times and interpret them in the light of the Gospel"; yet meanwhile it is the exact opposite that is being done.

* * *

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all else shall be added unto you": this sentence is the very key to the problem of our earthly condition, as is also that other one telling us that "the Kingdom of Heaven is within you." Or further, to recall another teaching from the Gospel: evil will only be overcome by "fasting and prayer," that is to say, by detachment from the world, which is "outward" and by attachment to Heaven, which is "inward."

To the question: "What is sin?" it may be replied straight away that this term refers to two levels or dimensions: the first of these requires that one should "obey the commandments," and the second, in accordance with the words of Christ to the rich young man, that one should "follow Me," that is to say, that one should establish oneself in the "inward dimension" and so realize contemplative perfection; the example of Mary takes precedence over that of Martha. Now, suffering in the world is due, not only to sin in the elementary sense of the word, but also, and more especially, to the sin of "outwardness," which moreover fatally gives rise to all the others. A perfect world would be, not merely one where men abstained from sins of action and omission, as did the rich young man, but a world above all composed of men who live "towards the Inward" and are firmly established in the knowledge—and consequently in the love—of that Unseen which transcends and includes all things. Three degrees must here be observed: the first is abstention from sin-as-act, such as murder, theft, lying and the non-performance of sacred duties; the second is absten­tion from sin-as-vice, such as pride, passion, avarice; the third is abstention from sin-as-a-state, that is to say, from that "outwardness" which is both a dispersion and a hardening and which gives rise to all vices and all transgressions. The absence of this sin-as-a-state is nothing other than "love of God" or "inwardness," whatever be the spiritual mode thereof. Only this "inwardness" would be capable of regenerating the world, and that is why it has been said that the world would have come to an end long ago but for the presence of the saints, whether visible or hidden from view.

It is sin-as-vice and, with all the more reason, sin-as-a-state that constitute intrinsic sin; these two degrees come together in pride, a symbolic notion which includes everything that imprisons the soul in outwardness and keeps it away from the Divine Life. As regards the first degree—that of transgression—there is here no intrinsic sin except in function of the intention and therefore of a real opposition to a revealed Law. It may happen that a forbidden act becomes permis­sible in certain circumstances, for one is always allowed to lie to a brigand or to kill in legitimate defence; but apart from such circum­stances an illegal act is always connected with intrinsic sin; it is assimilable to sin-as-vice and by that very fact to sin-as-a-state, the latter being none other than "hardness of heart" or the state of "paganism," to use scriptural language.

The impossible convergence is, in point of fact, the alliance between the principle of good and organized sin; that is to say the idea that the powers of this world, which are necessarily sinful powers, should organize sin with the aim of abolishing the effects of sin. It would appear that the new pastoral message is attempting precisely to speak the language of the "world," which has now come to be treated as an honourable entity without there being the slightest discernible reason for this unexpected promotion. Now to wish to speak the language of the "world," or the language of "our time"—another definition which studiously avoids being one—amounts to making truth speak the language of error or virtue the language of vice. The whole problem of pastoral communication in search of "a language" reduces itself in practice to the following feat: how to speak Latin so that people may think that it is Hottentot, or in other words, so that they do not notice that it is Latin? Nothing is more dubious than the expression "to speak the language of someone or other" or else "to speak the language of one's own time." With the relativistic adultera­tion that this really implies one may indeed win adherents, but no one will be "converted"; there will be no conferring of illumination, no calling to the saving inwardness.[2]

To understand religion is to accept it without attempting to impose any off-hand conditions; imposing conditions clearly is to misunderstand it and to render it subjectively ineffective: an absence of haggling is part of the integrity of faith. To impose conditions—whether at the level of individual or social "well-being" or at the level of the liturgy which one would like to make as flat and trivial as possible—is to be in fundamental ignorance of what religion is, what God is and what man is. It amounts straight away to treating religion as a neutral and inoperative background such as it could never be and to taking away from it in advance all its rights and its whole reason for existing. Profane humanitarianism, with which official religion is trying more and more to identify itself, is incompatible with the total truth, and consequently also with true charity, for the simple reason that the material well-being of earthly man is not the whole of well-being and does not in fact coincide with the whole interest of the immortal human person.

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God ..."

To recall this truth over and over again is the first duty of all men of religion; if there is one truth of which it could be said that it is par­ticularly apt for "our time," it is this one beyond all others.
shapeshifter
„With God all things are possible”[1]

by
Lord Northbourne



THE existence of our universe, in its fullest extension in space and in time and with all that it contains both quantitative and qualita­tive, proves that it is among the things that are possible with God. It is perfectly gratuitous to assume that nothing else is possible with God simply because nothing else is at present accessible to us. Our universe is governed by certain conditions, the chief of which are form, number, time, space and mass or energy, and our faculties are adapted to these conditions and not to any others. If we choose to assume that no other conditions exist or are possible, we are simply assuming that there is nothing beyond what is, in fact or in principle, within the grasp of human perception and powers of deduction; and that, if you come to think of it, is a curiously presumptuous thing to do, since it makes human limitations the measure of the power of God. It is also curiously naďve to behave as if the mind of man, without the help of anything to raise it above its inherent and obvious limitations, could be supposed to be in principle capable of comprehending (in the double sense of enclosing and understanding) not only all that is, not excepting its own self, but also all that is possible. The power of God, as our text states so clearly, comprehends all possibility, and all possibility is infinitely more than all actuality and we can never perceive more than a small fraction even of actuality, let alone of possibility.
The word "infinitely" has just been used, but not carelessly or conventionally, because, once one has abandoned the idea that pos­sibility is limited by the conditions of our terrestrial experience, there is no conceivable reason to assign any limit to it whatsoever. This is exactly what our text says in apparently very simple words; and here, as always, the simplest wording is the least restrictive and the best adapted to convey a highly comprehensive and far-reaching conception. By reason of its very simplicity it contains in potentiality more than any prolonged explanatory statement could convey.
A true statement made in theological terms, as this one is, necessarily corresponds to a truth that can be stated in metaphysical terms; in this case that truth could be called the illimitation of all-possibility. The choice of terms is a matter of opportunity alone. The metaphysical conception of all-possibility and its illimitation is fundamental; once it is grasped it does not matter so much what it is called, since all terms are limitative, and here it is a question of an absence of limits. This conception is in fact logically inescapable, for if pos­sibility were limited it would have to be limited by something, and that something would itself be a possibility, for if it were not a possibility, it would be pure nothingness, and so could not be the cause of a limita­tion or of anything else. The conception cannot be grasped at all unless the mind can be freed, at least to some extent, from habits of thought arising from its confinement within the body, which tend to limit its range to the phenomena of terrestrial experience. Language in particular, the means whereby we communicate our thoughts, is derived entirely from our terrestrial experience, and for that reason no verbal statement of the metaphysical theory of all-possibility can convey its full content, or can be intrinsically complete and unequivocal. That fact by no means invalidates the theory, it is only a consequence of its comprehensiveness.[2] Nevertheless, a little further explanation must be attempted.
Every identifiable or definable possibility, whether simple or complex, that is to say, every object, every event and every combination of the two, is limited by the fact that there are other possibilities distinct from it and external to it. If that were not so, it would be in no way distinguishable in itself. By definition no possibility is external to all-possibility, which is therefore not limited by any possibility. It might however be thought that impossibility, being as it were the opposite of possibility, must be distinct from all-possibility and external to it, or in other words that possibility ends where impossibility begins. But impossibility does not begin anywhere; it is another word for "nothing," a mere conception, purely negative, denying everything that has been or is or could be. Entities have beginnings and ends, total non-entity has neither. If impossibility has no beginning, possibility has no end. Definable entities, in so far as they are con­sidered as existing in their own right, by virtue of what they seem to be rather than by virtue of what they obviously are not, can be regarded as so many limitations of all-possibility. From that point of view their existence represents a sort of departure from all-possibility, as it were a step in a "descent" towards impossibility, which however can never be reached, as the word itself implies. Such a point of view is admissible, and can be useful provided that it is recognised as partial and provisional. It is no more than that because nothing exists in its own right, but only by virtue of its participation in all-possibility. In the last analysis, all-possibility, being limited neither by possibility nor by impossibility, is limitless. As such it is neither definable nor imaginable, since there is nothing outside it to supply either the likeness or the contrast on which identification depends.
For these or similar reasons many people, especially those who pride themselves on being practical or up-to-date, would say that the concep­tion of all-possibility is unnecessary, or at least that it is a purely mental conception embodied in a play of words having no relevance to the solution of current problems, and that therefore the question of its inescapability or otherwise is purely academic. Yet if the conception corresponds to a truth that is fundamental to an understanding of the nature of existence it cannot be negligible; on the contrary, it is vital that it should be grasped by all who are capable of doing so, at least to some extent and in one form or another, whether metaphysical or religious. One of its religious forms is that enshrined in our text. Moreover, since the conception cannot be fully grasped by the mind alone, but involves the whole man, heart as well as mind, the simplicity and directness of that text is very significant.
The physical universe that affects our senses can be regarded as a single complex possibility, that is to say, as a system that can be identified and in principle described. We spend a lot of time trying to formulate its laws, which amounts to defining its limits as precisely as we can. Independently of how far we succeed, the simple fact that the universe is subject to laws, and that its possibilities are limited by those laws, proves that it does not coincide with all-possibility, that is to say that it is not infinite and not alone, and that there is something external to it. That being so, what can be conceived as being external to it other than the indefinity of possibilities postulated by the theory of all-possibility? Any other assumption is arbitrary; this one has an impregnable logical foundation. It is true that it cannot be verified by observation; but neither can any other more limited assumption, since nothing outside our universe can be acces­sible to observation by us, who, for so long as we rely exclusively on our powers of observation and deduction, are looking at the universe from within and can by no means survey it from without.
Yet man, and man alone, can recognise the fact that the universe he knows is subject to laws. He fails to make the right deductions from this fact, and so tends to identify the universe with all-possibility, and he is tempted to do so more and more as the extent of his knowledge of its observable features increases. Surely it is evident that more ancient views of the nature of the universe, such as would usually be called "religious" or "traditional," although on the physical side less extensive and often less accurate, were really much more comprehensive. At least they took into account possibilities far more extensive than those comprised in our terrestrial state; and it must not be forgotten that all our means of communication are derived from our common ter­restrial experience, so that the nature of those possibilities can only be conveyed symbolically and never descriptively; the various images made use of to represent them could not therefore be expected to coincide formally. In short, though modern scientific knowledge reveals much that was previously unknown, yet in fact it hides or supplants much more. In aiming at completeness in one aspect of the picture it suppresses the picture as a whole.

Man's awareness of the limitations of his universe implies that there is something in him that can penetrate beyond its bounds, that is to say, beyond the world of phenomena, although his powers of observa­tion can never do so, however well developed they may be. It may be mentioned in parenthesis that phenomena such as are sometimes called "paranormal" are still phenomena, and as such they are of this world, and, as with normal phenomena, their outward form is one thing and the interpretation of its significance is another. It is just this possibility of seeing the limitations of this world that marks the uniqueness of man and enables him to rise above his terrestrial limita­tions. When he fails to take advantage of that possibility by neglecting or rejecting the divine revelations which alone can shed light on the mystery of existence—a mystery which is beyond the reach of his natural or unaided mind and senses—he becomes no more than a thinking animal, subject to the same laws as the animals, and having no superior rights save those arising from his superior ingenuity. Hence the universal concern of religious doctrines with a certain detachment from the world as a necessary condition for the realisation of man's true destiny.
Our universe, being subject to definable laws, excludes anything that is incompatible with those laws. It can be regarded as a system of mutually compatible possibilities, or "compossibles" as they can conveniently be called. The compossibles constituting a system such as our universe are not assembled by chance nor by any arbitrary choice, they simply constitute a system because they are what they are. The number of possible systems is indefinite, not only because the number of possibilities that can be assembled into systems is indefinite, but also because any given possibility can form part of a plurality of different systems, each of which is defined by a unique set of conditions, and has its own relative internal unity, and its own relative reality; all its reality is however derived entirely from its participation in all-possibility, which alone is absolutely real and wholly itself. Whatever else may be or may not be all-possibility cannot not be; the one thing that is inconceivable is its limitation. All the rest follows. It is vain to seek to formulate the ultimate reason why things are what they are; they are what they are because it is possible that they should be so, and therefore impossible that they should not be so; and they are in a particular system—our own universe for instance—because they are compatible with the conditions that define that system. In theological terms one could say that they are what they are and where they are because God made them so and gave them their place. That sounds a bit old-fashioned, but it is much better sense than a good deal that is said today about the origin and nature of our universe.
All this is scarcely as much as a sketch of the theory of all-possibility. It may however be just enough to convey by contrast some idea of the complete inadequacy of the modern scientific outlook and of the insignificance of its results. In equating what he can see and know distinctively with the whole of reality, and in attributing a sort of absolute validity to this outlook and its results, scientific man is not only taking a fraction of a fraction to be unity, but at the same time he is making himself insignificant, a mere trivial accident in the evolutionary process of an apparently arbitrary and purposeless mechanism. For so long as he continues to try to squeeze reality into the miserably inadequate vessel of his own brain he will continue to become himself more and more insignificant.
A living terrestrial being, a human being for example, can, like the universe itself, be regarded as a coherent system of compossibles, an assemblage of inter-related potentialities, manifested in a mode which accords with the conditions that characterize this universe. The potentialities in question constitute an individual being distinct from all others because they are what they are and for no other reason; as in the case of the universe, their assembly is in no sense fortuitous or arbitrary; and they remain for ever what they are, whether man­ifested or not. They can be manifested under a variety of conditions without losing their cohesion, their individuality, because its source is in their intrinsic nature and is not external thereto. Their manifesta­tion under particularized conditions, for instance those peculiar to our universe, realizes only such potentialities as are concordant with those conditions, but not others, so that it appears both as a realization and as a limitation. The total being in all its potentiality is not realized, but only as it were one possible aspect of it. A different aspect, perhaps less limited, perhaps more so, must characterize its manifestation under other conditions, but the total being must remain what it was and is. Only in a total release from all the limitations inherent in manifestation can the being realize its full potentiality. In other and more familiar words, man has an immortal soul capable of perfection, and its sojourn on this earth is but a partial and passing phase. On this earth we have a body, but it is not ourselves, it belongs to this universe, wherein it reflects potentialities inherent in our being. At death we leave this universe and are therefore parted from our bodies, but this does not affect our real being and its potentialities, which can, and must, be then reflected in some other "universe" in a new mode, according to whatever conditions may prevail. These may include some kind of duration and extension, corresponding to, but not identifiable with, our time and space, as well as something corresponding to the "materiality" which conditions our bodies; but such possibilities are far beyond the range of our imagination. St. Paul says of our bodies, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a spiritual body and a natural body."[3] The doctrine of the resurrection of the body gives rise to many doubts and difficulties, even in the minds of believers. It need not do so, since the possibilities manifested in the body cannot be annihilated.
In our present state we are involved in time and space, wherein possibilities are manifested in succession and in extension; but they can equally well be considered as co-existing in a non-temporal and non-spatial state, although this does not come naturally to us because of our present involvement in time and space. Our present point of view is not for that reason false or distorted, but it is particularized in a special way. The fact that a more generalized conception can be reached, at least by some people, is direct evidence of our situation on the central and "vertical" axis connecting the whole hierarchy of possible states, each of which can be envisaged as a "horizontal" expansion of a point on this axis. Such a picture of our situation is evidently symbolical; as such, its content is virtually inexhaustible.[4] Meanwhile, it is perhaps helpful to think of the present as permanent and as alone wholly real. In it alone can we act or be acted upon; it summarizes the past and conditions the future; it alone is always with us; it is stationary while events move past it; it will still be when everything else has gone; it is the container, events are its ever-changing content. Comparably, space is spherical, and a sphere is defined by the relation of its parts to its centre; it may revolve or expand or contract, but always by reference to its centre, which contains and regulates all its potentiality. The present is eternal, the centre is ubiquitous. In the terrestrial state the symbol—the likeness—of eternity is the present, and the symbol of infinity is the dimensionless centre, the point. Eternity is not a very long time, nor is infinity a very capacious space. And in the last analysis eternity and infinity are not two, but one, and all-possibility is one of the names of that indivisible Unity.
Let us return again to theology and consider what religion teaches. Being concerned with humanity alone, for the good reason that humanity represents the central and only fully conscious element in the universe, religion is only indirectly concerned with the multiple states of being as they affect non-human entities, animate or inanimate. All living beings "have the same religion as ours" as Black Elk says of the birds,[5] that is to say, they express their dependence on God each in its own way, in their forms and their behaviour, (see also for example Psalms 19 vv. 1-3, and 104 v. 21). Having little or no con­sciousness of their individuality they are not tempted to the sort of presumption of independence that beguiles us; they have therefore not only no capacity for, but also no need for, anything corresponding to the external forms of religion as we know them.
The doctrines of the great religions are formulated in many different ways and expressed through a very varied imagery, but integral to them is always the idea that the human being has an essential and immortal part which passes through a plurality of states, of which this present life is one. The "monotheistic" religions teach, for instance, that man has an immortal soul, given to him by God, and destined after its earthly death, in which it is separated from the body, to pass on to Paradise, purgatory or hell, the choice depending on what it has done during its sojourn on earth. This no doubt is a great simplification of the situation in its entirety; nevertheless, it expresses the metaphysical truth adequately, and in a manner adapted to the needs and capacities of the people who are called upon to accept it, for whom it is unnecessary to know more than this. It is however vital for the state of their souls that they should not know less than this, and that they should order their lives accordingly, that is to say, as a prepara­tion for an inevitable change of state. At death we drop all our terrestrial characteristics, all bodily and mental forms, for they are but the temporary manifestation of the possibilities inherent in and characteristic of the immortal centre which is our real being and that real being takes on another form, reflecting its proper nature in its new surroundings.
While subject to terrestrial conditions, or to any others, the individual being does not become something other than it is in principle or in potentiality, but it is passing through a phase of limitation, as it has done before and will do again. It will be a different phase every time; it has been said that "we pass this way but once," and this is necessarily true; the timeless co-existence of all things in all-possibility excludes any repetition, simply because two identical possibilities are not two but one. That is why religion treats the judgment that faces all beings after death as final, for so it is from the point of view of terrestrial existence, which is what a terrestrial religion is primarily concerned with. Religion could not, however, present the truth without taking account of non-terrestrial states: in the monotheistic religions they are referred to as paradises, purgatories and hells, and are situated symbolically "above" or "beneath" this world.
It will have become clear that within a given set of conditions, or compossibles, in other words, in a particular universe, every pos­sibility compatible with those conditions must be manifested, the universe in question being a manifestation of all-possibility in a par­ticular mode. Therefore possibilities of distinction, of contrast, of definition, also of opposition, contradiction and negation, and even of a sort of apparent negation of itself, cannot be excluded. Manifesta­tion consists precisely in this kind of throwing into relief of one possibility by its separation from another, or by the possibility of its apparent negation, without which everything would remain in the permanent indistinction and non-manifestation of all-possibility itself; but if things were to remain in that state, all-possibility would not be all-possibility, since the possibilities of distinction and opposition, that is to say, of manifestation, would be excluded, and that is impos­sible. White is manifested through its contrast with black; similarly with good and evil, beauty and ugliness, truth and untruth. In the non-manifestation of all-possibility there is no separateness and no negation (for negation implies a separation) there is only the unimaginable perfection of totality—but we have already passed far beyond what words alone can convey. This is the only complete answer to people who say, "If all things are possible with God, why does not He eliminate evil and ugliness and pain?" There are other answers of course, some good and some bad, but they are all vulnerable in one way or another. If God were to eliminate these things, there would be no manifestation, no world and no salvation; but more than that, there would be no completion, no perfection, no fulfilment.

St. Paul says that "all things work together for good to them that love God."[6] This is a comprehensive statement of the metaphysical truth in theological terms. We read too in the Book of Genesis[7] that, from the third day of the creation, when the distinctively manifested features of this universe begin to appear, God saw that each of them was good. Finally, he "saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." As in the case of our text, the simplicity and directness of these words confers on them a power and a range that would be diminished by any dialectical expansion or elaboration. And as it is with fundamental statements of truth such as these, so it is with faith. A simple and direct faith is stronger and more far-reaching than a faith justified or sustained mainly by philosophical or quasi-philosophical considerations. In so far as the latter is of the brain alone it is peripheral and mobile; the simple faith is of the heart, it subsists at the centre and illumines the whole being, brain and all. With it, theurgy is regarded as the culmination of philosophy.
(more..)', 271)";>philosophy can live; without it, theurgy is regarded as the culmination of philosophy.
(more..)', 271)";>philosophy is a dead thing.
As limited beings, we cannot know all-possibility, still less imagine or visualise it in any way, since it cannot be compared or contrasted with anything, nothing being outside it or separable from it; and yet at the same time the universe we can know is nothing but a reflection or refraction of all-possibility, and derives all its qualities and all its reality therefrom. St. Paul said, "Now we see through a glass, darkly ..."[8]: and only if we look upon the universe as a partial refraction of all-possibility, and not as if it were itself identifiable with all-pos­sibility, can we "see God in all things"; for it is just in this sense that He is "in all things," and that all things subsist only "in God" and not in themselves; and at the same time that all things, to the extent that their appearance is taken for the reality, play the part of so many veils hiding the Presence of Him with whom all things are possible.


NOTES

[1] Matt. 19: 26 and Mark 10 27. This is what we mean, or ought to mean, when we speak of the omnipotence of God, or refer to Him by His Name "the Almighty." It corresponds closely to the words "wa Huwa 'ala kulli shay'in qadir" which occur frequently in the Koran, meaning "and He has power over all things."

[2] For an exposition of the theory of all-possibility, the reader must be referred to two works by René Guénon: Le Symbolisme de la Croix and Les Etats multiples de l'Erre (Paris, Les Editions Véga, 1931 and 1947 respectively). As the titles of these works suggest, their author approaches his subject, which is inexhaustible, from several different points of view, none of which is valid to the exclusion of the others.

[3] I Cor. 15:44.

[4] Le Symbolisme de la Croix (see note (2)) is mainly concerned with the development of this symbolism.

[5] "Black Elk Speaks," by John G. Neihardt, page 199. William Morrow and Co. New York, 1932. Reprinted, University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln, 1961.

[6] Rom. 8: 28

[7] Genesis 1: 9 to 31. I Cor. 13:12.

[8] I Cor.13:12

shapeshifter
Religion and Science

by
Lord Northbourne



I am going to try to outline a situation chiefly marked by an unprecedented intellectual confusion arising out of the fact that the astonishingly rapid advance of modern science has caused many beliefs axioms and assumptions of very long standing to be seriously questioned. The origins and nature of the universe and the situation of man in it have become matters of doubt and of speculation; such indeed are the very questions to which religion and science appear to give different answers. Now these are not questions of interest only to a few philosophers and theologians, they are of immense and immediate practical importance, simply because everyone, even if he hardly ever thinks at all, acts in accordance with some assumption or other concerning the basic realities of his situation. That assumption dictates the tendency, and therefore the ultimate effect, of all that he does, and if it is false his best endeavours are bound to go astray; and this applies with every bit as much force to the collectivity as to the individual. But in these days, in which there is no established traditional order, no unquestioned hierarchy of the intelligence or of anything else, all fundamental decisions are thrown back on to the judgment of the individual, and few indeed are those who are equipped to stand the strain.
First I must define briefly but as unequivocally as I can the word "religion" and the word "science". Having once done so I shall not qualify them every time they occur.
The Latin root of the word "religion" is connected with the idea of "binding" or "attachment." First, a very broad definition: religion is the link by which humanity is effectively attached to what is greater than itself. By "humanity" I mean mankind as a whole, past, present and future, with all its achievements aspirations and potentialities both individual and collective. By the word "greater" I mean "eminently" or "incommensurably" greater. If no such attachment is possible, the word "religion" is superfluous. If it is possible, we ignore that possibility at our peril.
But that broad definition must be narrowed down a little. I am thinking, and I expect most of you (perhaps not all) to be thinking, primarily of the Christian religion. But I cannot include everything that claims to be Christian, for the epithet is used to bolster up all kinds of misconceptions, fantasies and sentimentalities. I do not exclude, with similar reservations, any of what are usually known as the "great religions" of the world. They are defined by the fact that they gave rise to great civilizations; it is therefore presumptuous to suppose that they fail to conform to my first definition, despite obvious differences in their outward forms. It is men and times that differ; religion in so far as it is a human institution differs with them, but in its essentials it is always the same.[1] I specifically exclude the many pseudo-religions of relatively recent origin that have attracted so many adherents and done so much to obscure the essentials of religion properly so called.
For present purposes I shall use the word "science" without epithet as a general term covering the whole field of modern observational science in all its branches, but with special reference to the theurgy is regarded as the culmination of philosophy.
(more..)', 271)";>philosophy that has grown up round it as distinct from its method. That theurgy is regarded as the culmination of philosophy.
(more..)', 271)";>philosophy has permeated modern civilization, and it governs the thoughts and actions of many people to whom the word "philosophy" means almost nothing. The outlook peculiar to it is now predominant, and this is something new; it is incontestable that in earlier ages an outlook that can broadly be called "religious" was predominant. Some would prefer to say "superstitious," but that is begging a very vital question. Others might prefer the more general word "traditional."
Is there a conflict between religion and science, and what is its nature if it exists? One can say that certainly there ought not to be a conflict, for each claims both to present truth and to be seeking it, so that the more nearly each justifies its claim the more nearly should they come together; but they don't seem to. I want if I can to indicate how far this is due to the fact that both religion and science have got themselves into a false position, though in very different ways, and how far it is due to fundamental divergences.
Religion and science both claim to be true, and I assert without fear of contradiction in this hall that nothing matters in the end but truth. The human faculty concerned in the appreciation of truth is the intelligence, and intelligence is therefore the highest human faculty. Now intelligence is more than reason alone, for reason must have material to work on; reason is that part of the intelligence which relates one datum to another. The source of the data available to reason is not solely external; in fact it is much more "how we see things" than "what we see." I shall return to this point, which is crucial. Meanwhile the point is that, if religion is true, it must engage the intelligence, and the intelligence above all, even before it engages the will and the emotions. I cannot emphasize this too strongly, particularly because the common assumption seems to be that science has a sort of monopoly of intelligence, and that religion is primarily concerned with the will and the emotions. Science, on its part is not worthy of the name unless it takes into account everything that can come within the range of the intelligence and not one aspect of reality alone.
What then is the universe? The common reaction to that question is to the effect that it cannot at present be answered fully, but that anyhow the only way to find out what the universe is is by looking at it. The difficulty is that looking at the universe, or at any part of it, can never tell us what it is, but only what it looks like to us. The image is not independent of ourselves who make it. We paint a picture of the universe; it is inevitably highly selective because the material available is limitless, and incidentally includes ourselves. So we choose what interests us, and we also choose the light in which it is to be represented. As with all pictures, the result is more than anything else a picture of our own outlook, however "representational" of the outer world we believe it to be.
Furthermore: the seer is not what he sees. This duality is inherent in the act of observation, to whatever that act may be applied; it defines the act. Each one of you can observe the psycho-physical complex of which his body is the material aspect; therefore that complex is other than the observer, other than yourself. So if anyone thinks either that he as observer is aware of anything but the reflected image of the outside world in himself, or that he as observer can turn round and discover by observation what he himself is, he is in manifest error. Yet if he does not know what he himself is, he cannot possibly understand the nature of the images that constitute his knowledge of the universe.
This is the inescapable dilemma sometimes slimmed up in the words "the eye cannot see itself." Directly we put ourselves into the position of observers, we elude our own observation. Our relationship to our environment is therefore not as simple as we like to think, for we are part of the universe and cannot separate ourselves from it. If we think we can, we fool ourselves. A common and natural reaction to this would be: "so what? We cannot alter that situation; we have nothing to go on but our powers of observation and deduction, and must do our best with what we have. So why bother our heads with such matters?" The answer is that I am talking about a theurgy is regarded as the culmination of philosophy.
(more..)', 271)";>philosophy of science that dominates the world, and these considerations are fundamental to that philosophy, whether it likes it or not.
Is there anything, then, that we can say for sure about the universe? At least we can say that it is an order, a "cosmos"; it is not a "chaos." The living being is also an order, an organism, a "microcosm"; like the universe it is a whole coordinated by something. What is it that makes the universe what it is, and us what we are, and gives to each its inward unity? This is the goal of philosophy, whether it be based on religion or on science.

Science seeks this coordinating principle in the observable. From this point of view the universe consists of identifiable and numerable entities; it does not matter what you call them, because all terms such as "particles" or "forces" are provisional and analogical, since the ultimate constituents, as at present envisaged, can only be described in mathematical terms. The point is that the nature of those constituents is regarded as being deducible from observation, and further, since they are the fundamental constituents of the universe, the coordinating principle is regarded as being inherent in their nature. Therefore the task of science is to elucidate that nature; and it is assumed that if this could be done, everything would be explained; and "everything" must include the psychic element we can observe in living beings. However, that psychic element comes late into the picture, since living beings are regarded as a late (and possibly rather rare and freakish) development in the evolutionary process; nobody supposes that it is they who arranged the stars. But if we, in the name of science, reject all that is not in principle observable, and regard life as a late evolutionary development, we are forced to assume that these inanimate elementary entities or forces, known or as yet unknown, are so constituted as to have here and there combined and arranged themselves in incredibly complex and relatively stable patterns, in such a way that all the phenomena of life are manifested: not only birth, growth, reproduction and death, but also a consciousness both objective and subjective, an active will, memory, emotion and intelligence itself.
This sounds like nonsense, as indeed it is. Nonsense is the only possible result of any attempt to find the coordinating principle of the observable in the observable, or, what amounts to the same thing, of the relative in the relative. Such attempts can only lead to a going round and round in circles, in search of something that is always round the corner and always will be; to a wrapping up of the mystery—or the miracle—of existence and of intelligence in words that get nowhere, in a desperate endeavour to escape at all costs from mystery and from miracle. But in vain, for this mystery is the only thing from which there is no escape save by death. It is the mystery of our own existence and our own intelligence, at once self-evident and inexplicable.
I must explain in parenthesis that the word "mystery", in its debased and commonplace sense, signifies merely anything that is unknown but in principle discoverable. I use it throughout in its original and proper sense, in which it signifies whatever is too exalted or too comprehensive to be grasped or defined distinctively, though it can in principle be apprehended directly. The mysteries of religion are always of this latter nature; the mysteries of science are of the former.
The very principle of the scientific method is to objectivize as far as possible. It uses the intelligence but takes its existence for granted; very practical, very sensible, since for most of the work of the world it is superfluous to do otherwise. But if you bypass the subject, without which there is no objective knowledge, you must not philosophize.
I am far from suggesting that, because they are not "properties of matter" or anything of the kind, life and love, beauty and joy, and intelligence itself, are not of the stuff of which the cosmos is made. Of course they are; they are inherent in its very cause, in its eternal principle, where they subsist as imperishable possibilities. We are aware only of their manifestation under terrestrial conditions, and that manifestation implies the co-existence of their negation[2]; but they are doubtless manifested under endless other conditions of which we can have no inkling while we cannot see beyond our present state. For our universe, in its totality, only represents one of an indefinite multitude of systems of "compossibles," and we only know or can ever know an insignificant fraction even of our own universe, which in its totality is far more extensive, more varied and more wonderful than the wildest dreams of science could ever make it out to be, as Shakespeare knew well: "there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophies."
I said that it is nonsense to try to find the coordinating principle of the relative in the relative. It is in fact completely illogical, if words mean anything. I go one further and suggest to you that what we are always in reality looking for, what we lean on and what we thirst for, whether we know it or not and whatever we think we are looking for, is in fact non-relative, that is to say, the Absolute, although it is inherently mysterious, unseizable and non-observable. For instance: if you assert that everything is relative, your statement is itself relative, that is to say, contingent and mobile. It may be right today and wrong tomorrow, and is scarcely worth making. If you maintain that anything (your statement for instance) is less relative than something else, you are bringing in the Absolute. You may argue that there are regions of relative stability, or nodes of higher probability, and that your statement is related to them, and so can be said to be more valid than other statements. What can "relative stability" or "higher probability" be taken to mean? They can only mean "nearer to something yet more stable" or "still less relative," and so on; and in the end inescapably "nearer to the unchanging, to the non-relative," that is to say: "nearer to the Absolute."
In fact thought is impossible, it is completely chaotic, save in relation to the Absolute unqualified and unqualifiable. We are in fact usually thinking of something "relatively absolute," that is to say, of something that represents the Absolute on a particular plane or in a particular region, rather than of the Absolute itself: but this does not alter the fact that the Absolute constitutes the basic condition and the fundamental assumption of all logical and coherent thought. It is limitless and all-comprehending and therefore undefinable, nevertheless it forces itself upon us even when we ignore it or try to dispense with it. If we try to escape from it, we inevitably end up by inventing a false absolute, which amounts to adopting an unreal and invalid point of reference. This fact is by no means unconnected with the fact that if we try to dispense with God we inevitably end up by inventing false gods; and this is true although the word "absolute" and the word "God" are not interchangeable. And when false gods fail it, as they must, humanity has nothing left to deify but itself. This development has a name: "humanism" we call it.
The rightful domain of science is that of the observable, and surely it ought to be enough, for it is inexhaustible, though so very far from being everything. The rightful domain of religion is that of the fundamental but non-observable mystery, call it what you will, that is the key to everything, though some who claim to represent religion seem often to behave as if they had forgotten the fact. Conflict and confusion arise when either tries to occupy the domain of the other.
Science gets into trouble and ends up nowhere when it tries to philosophize about ultimates, instead of getting on with its entirely practical work, its craft. Religion gets into trouble when it tries to adapt itself to the approach of science, instead of trying to perfect its own approach.
We are obsessed by the fact that we have found out how to do so much to enlarge the sensitivity of our organs of sense, by the use of telescopes, microscopes and all the rest. We forget that it is what we are, our own inmost nature, the "light that is in us" that conditions what we make of the messages we receive through the senses, and that is vastly more important than how many different sense-impressions we receive; "And if that light be darkness, how great is that darkness."[3] We forget that a mere multiplication of facts (which is, in the strictest sense of the word, interminable) can do nothing whatever towards improving the quality of our intelligence; indeed, when it becomes an obsession, it can easily lead to a fragmentation of knowledge rather than to its unification. I would go farther, and say that it inevitably does so; also that computers cannot help, because they are not intelligent. The most widely travelled individual is not necessarily the wisest; a hermit may be far wiser than he. It is indeed perfectly possible to see too much, and, in the common phrase, to be unable to see the wood for the trees. It is equally possible to look so hard in one direction that you see nothing in the other; to be so preoccupied with your botanizing that you do not notice the bull charging you from behind.
Only one who knows what his own existence is (and he cannot find out by observation, nor can he know any existence but his own) knows what existence as such is, that of other people and things, as well as his own. Not how he himself or other people or things look or behave, that can be learnt by observation, but what they are, what it is that behaves in such and such a way, whether its appearance be that of a man or an atom or a star. It is ten thousand times more important to know what man is, even imperfectly, than to know, however completely, the distances of the stars or how to smash the atom. It is perhaps not surprising that this kind of knowledge is often most accessible, intuitively but not analytically, to the mentally uncomplicated, and is "hidden from the wise and prudent."[4] You may recall too that the "mystery of the Kingdom of God... cometh not with observation" but is "within you."[5]
shapeshifter
Not for nothing was the inscription "Know Thyself" written over the gateway to Aristotle's school of philosophy; but of course his theurgy is regarded as the culmination of philosophy.
(more..)', 271)";>philosophy was founded on religion. Religion is there to teach us what we are—each according to his capacity to accept and to understand—and, in so far as it does so, not only does it engage the intelligence, but it is the very foundation of intelligence. "To fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom," said Ecclesiasticus.[6]
Someone may be thinking: "What is all this preoccupation with oneself? Surely it is contrary to religion as well as to our natural feelings, and surely the one thing that is useful and unselfish is to get on as best we can with making the world a better place; for we can only take things as we find them, ourselves included, and do our best with them."
There are two immediate answers. Firstly: action cannot be effective unless based on a knowledge as accurate and as comprehensive as possible. Goodwill is of course necessary, but, alone it is powerless. If what I have said is right, and if the key to understanding is in the answer to the question, "What am I?", which cannot be answered by observation, then to seek it where it is to be found, namely "within you," cannot be selfish; even apart from the fact that no task is more exacting than that search, which necessitates (at first sight paradoxically) the elimination of all personal ambition or desire. Nor is any task more charitable, since its fulfilment alone can teach us what we are. As a specialist task it is by no means everyone's: it demands both vocation and training; but all other tasks are justified by the extent to which they help to make it possible. This may seem a surprising assertion, yet that is the principle underlying the structure of every civilization founded on religion, however imperfectly it may be realised. No wonder we don't understand such civilizations.
Secondly: the objective of action must be clear and valid. It cannot be either if it is based on uncertainty or misconception about what man is, or about what are his origin, function and destiny. Where any such misconception exists, efforts to do good are likely to be misdirected. That is putting it mildly. "Where there is no vision the people perish."[7]
Most of our actions today are dictated by a combination between a theurgy is regarded as the culmination of philosophy.
(more..)', 271)";>philosophy of science, more or less popularized,[8] and habits of thought originating in a religion that has largely lost its original authority. I am evidently implying that this combination is weak in its understanding of the origin, function and destiny of man. That there should be confusion is not surprising, for it is in their respective views of man's situation that religion and science differ most conspicuously. In discussing their differences, I shall of course use the religious language that is familiar to most of us. It is as adequate as words can be for giving expression to ideas concerning the mystery of existence but it is essential not to forget that it is symbolical, because it cannot be "descriptive" in the limitative sense of the word.[9]
Let us consider origin and function first. According to the religious view, the origin of all things is divine, and therefore mysterious in the proper sense. Man is the culminating point of the creation, the representative of God on earth, and his special function is to keep the universe in touch with God, who is its origin and its end, and this implies that he must above all keep himself in touch with God. For this purpose he was created and has been given his dominion over the animals and plants. But let me quote St. Francis of Sales who, in his Introduction to the Devout Life," puts the religious view of the function of man in its purest—some would say its most extreme—form.
"God did not put you into this world because of any need that he had of you, but only that he might exercise in you his goodness, giving you his grace and his glory. To this end he has given you understanding wherewith to know him, memory wherewith to remember him, will wherewith to love him, imagination that you might picture his benefits, eyes that you might see the marvels of his works, a tongue wherewith to praise him, and likewise with the other faculties. Being created and put into this world with that intention, all intentions contrary thereto must be rejected and avoided, and those that in no way serve this end must be despised as being vain and superfluous. Consider the misfortune of the world which thinks not at all of this, but lives as if thinking that it had been created only to build houses, plant trees, amass riches and disport itself."
The scientific view, in its purest or most extreme form, is that all things are the product of an evolutionary process, the details of which it is the task of science to elucidate. They are mysterious only on the popular sense. According to this view, man is a product of evolution; his faculties have been developed step by step, by a process not yet fully understood, but in principle ascertainable. The function of man is therefore whatever he likes to make it, and in practice, to look after himself. If he has a responsibility towards his neighbours, human and non-human, it is a matter of conscience or of mutual advantage; and conscience itself must be a product of evolution; and evolution cannot be allowed by many advanced contemporary philosophers to be purposive in any sense, for fear of admitting the idea, however attenuated, of a god of some sort. So the best that man can do is to derive as much advantage to himself as he can from the accidents of his constitution and of his environment.
I cannot begin to see how these two points of view can be reconciled, unless they are so watered down as to be unrecognizable. However they may be formulated, the priorities implied by each are diametrically opposed.

So much for origin and function. What about destiny? Or if you like a nice scientific-sounding word: eschatology? Religion says that God gave us our lives and that at death they are taken back by him. Our bodies are but the temporary dwelling-place of an immortal soul, which is subject to a judgment after death, as a result of which it goes to paradise, purgatory or hell. This aspect of religion is often nowadays glossed over as far as possible, but that does not alter the fact that it is absolutely essential?[10]
It may occur to you that if what you the observer, the knower, the subject really are is other than the psycho-physical complex you can observe, there is no particular reason why you should perish when it perishes. But the exclusively scientific mind shies at such ideas because they cannot be checked in any way by observation. How could they? They are concerned only with that inmost "I" which we cannot observe, but which is nevertheless our real selves, on the one hand, and on the other with a state in which the real self is detached from the conditions of its mundane existence, including time and space. And if anyone says that only things tied to time, space or other terrestrial conditions can have any relevance for us or contact with us during our lives, I reply that it is precisely the intelligence that is not tied in that way—unless indeed it insists on forging its own chains.

By contrast, the eschatology of observational science is extremely simple, for the method it employs can never reveal any reason for regarding death—the only certainty that faces all of us—as anything but a total extinction; indeed if man is identified with his body it can be nothing else. (I might mention by the way that there is no need to question the reality of some of the phenomena associated with spiritualism; the interpretation to be assigned to them is a very different matter.) If extinction be in fact our destiny, the hitherto almost universal belief of humanity in some sort of "after-life" must be a delusion, no doubt largely wishful in origin, and must be replaced as quickly as possible by a more realistic view. A realistic view must however take account of every aspect of reality inward as well as outward: so which view is really realistic? And incidentally which is really dispassionate? It seems to me that the postulate of total extinction can serve as an easy way out of the necessity of facing the dread alternative of a heaven and a hell, and the prospect of a judgment in which our smallest and least considered actions and attitudes may outweigh all those we now regard as significant, because it is they that give the show away. And then, with the veil of the flesh torn away, at last we really see ourselves.
An eschatological compromise seems even more impossible than in the cases of origin and function. Either religion is childish and misleading, and destined to give way to an intellectual maturity of very recent appearance and great potentiality; or else science, in so far as it concerns itself with the origin of the universe or the function and destiny of man, is just plain wrong.

Such fundamental divergences impose an ineluctable choice. I have suggested that, since truth is in question, that choice must be referred to the intelligence, bearing in mind that intelligence is more than reason alone., I should not be surprised if some of you are thinking that in that connection I am attributing more to religion than is really there. More than meets the eye of the casual or unsympathetic observer—yes; more than it is easy for the unprejudiced but puzzled enquirer to find—perhaps; but more than is there—no.
The enemies of religion are interested above all in making it appear to be as arbitrary, as non-essential and as unintellectual as possible. One would sometimes think that some of its defenders, in their efforts to popularize it, were prepared to go a very long way in the same direction. I have made frequent reservations concerning religion in connection with some of its contemporary tendencies, all pointing to the fact that its intellectual aspect—the doctrinal aspect that engages the intelligence and is "metaphysical" in the proper sense of that much abused word,[11] or "philosophical" in the ancient sense of that word—that aspect has become so obscured by an overlay of moralism and emotionalism as almost to be forgotten. Nevertheless, it is always present, and accessible to those that "have ears to hear," in the words of the sacred Scriptures and of their orthodox commentaries; it is also implicit in the outward forms of religion, including its doctrinal formulations and its ritual which, if they had no intellectual basis, would indeed be arbitrary. This intellectual or metaphysical background is the heart of all religion, and, when it is lost sight of, religion cannot but go astray.
There are two ways of accounting for the hold that religion has maintained on mankind since the dawn of history until now—or should I say—"until very recently"? One is that there appears to be a kind of religious phase, factual but difficult to explain, in the evolutionary progress of humanity from a relatively bestial state to a civilized maturity, of which the present age is probably only the beginning.
The other is related to what I have just said, that the ultimate truth about the nature of the universe and the situation of man is implicit in, and somehow shines through, the very varied forms of religion; and that it is the concordance of this truth with our own inmost nature that confers on religion its mysterious power to attract and to hold. This, truth is too comprehensive to be contained by any unequivocal dialectical formulation, so that, for a large majority at least, religious conformity in the shape of belief and observance brings them much nearer to the truth than anything else possibly could. Religious belief therefore is a manifestation of intelligence, at least in so far as it is the expression of a real inward understanding which is unable to express itself in any other way, and moreover has no need to try to do so. Religion takes man as he is, and not as if everyone were a saint or a sage.

Belief is the form in which religious truth reaches the many. There are always some whom it reaches in a more explicitly intellectual form, and they alone are qualified to oppose dialectically any system of ideas that contradicts either religion as a whole or a particular religion. When those who are sufficiently well qualified are too few, or when pandemonium prevents their voices from being heard, religion is led into making more and more compromises, not with facts, which it never denies, but with a theurgy is regarded as the culmination of philosophy.
(more..)', 271)";>philosophy which seeks to reduce God to the measure of man, even when it does not reject God flatly, in either case depriving man of the possibility of rising above himself. The real strength of religion lies in its conformity to its metaphysical background,[12] in the light of which a synthetic view of the complexities of experience becomes possible, and in which the situation of man becomes clear in all its essentials. The strength of religion lies also, humanly speaking, in the uncompromising nature of its doctrines, provided that it does not admit compromise.
Religion, in seeking the absolute, loses itself in the relative, science, in probing the relative, mistakes it for the absolute.
There can be no justifiable criticism of the precision of science, nor of its objectivity, its quasi-mathematical detachment and (in theory at least) its dispassion. The effectiveness of your work depends on your maintaining those characteristics to the utmost; but their inherent limitation must be recognized. ' A good thing can get out of place, and I am certainly not suggesting that it is the fault of you, the practical men, that it has happened in this case. The fact is that the approach of science does not get to the heart of things, and it is impossible that it ever should. Nobody denies its effectiveness in changing the face of the world, and in providing us with material possessions on a scale hitherto undreamt of, and in combating disease and pain. Nevertheless, its application has not yet produced much contentment or feeling of security, which seem to be as far off as ever, if not farther. Why do people persist in their quarrels and discontents, hatreds, suspicions and revolts, and show no signs of amendment? Is it really because they have not yet got enough, or because someone else's lack of goodwill or stupidity delays the raising of the standard of living everywhere? It becomes daily more difficult to make that kind of explanation fit the facts. Or is it in the last analysis because even those who are most abundantly equipped for living are starved as never before of all that could give meaning to their lives, and because what is being offered to them—or should I say: what is being thrust down their throats?—does nothing whatever towards meeting this, the first of all needs?
If that be so, I suggest that the reason is that we, whatever may be our credo, have in practice behaved as if this life carried its own justification in itself, and have chosen to treat our existence as if it were an accident, and our intelligence as no more than a tool for the satisfaction of earthly needs and desires; whereas in reality that intelligence, provided that we are not too proud to acknowledge the mystery of its origin and of our own, can penetrate beyond the confines of the universe of phenomena and give us a glimpse of what is greater than ourselves; and that is what we need above all to give direction and meaning to our lives, to give us something to live for, and something to die for.


NOTES

[1] The implications of any other view seem to me to be unacceptable. I am, however, far from suggesting that it is wrong to regard a particular religion as the best, or even as the only true religion, in a given set of circumstances individual or collective; on the contrary, it is normal and right. I can do no more than make these assertions, since a dissertation on comparative religion is out of the question here. This aspect of the matter is not vital to my argument. See also note 3 on p. 232 and notes on pages 233 and 236.

[2] Existence is by derivation a "standing apart." Anything that exists stands apart distinctively from everything else, including its own cause and its own opposite or correlative. Its existence therefore implies that of its opposite or correlative; neither light nor darkness has any distinctive existence without the other. In the light of a real grasp of all that this implies, many puzzling questions sort themselves out.

[3] Matt. VI, 23.

[4] Matt. XI, 25.

[5] Luke XVII, 20 and 21.

[6] Ecciesiasticus I, 14.

[7] Proverbs XXIX, 18.

[8] The hypothesis of progressive evolution in particular has become established as a sort of dogma both scientifically and popularly. Nevertheless, it remains no more than a hypothesis, and a very questionable one at that, not only because there is much contradictory evidence, but also because it leaves open the vital question of what constitutes progress.

[9] Not all religions envisage the origin of the universe in terms of a divine "Creation," as do Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Not all are even theistic, for Buddhism is not. The mystery that underlies all existence can be symbolized in many different ways, not necessarily outwardly coincident, much in the same way as separate two-dimensional projections of a solid object may differ according to the point of view without being intrinsically false. They may suggest the third dimension, but cannot specify it by their form alone. We rightly seek precision in our statements, but a statement can be precise in two senses: either because it is inherently unequivocal, or because it is understood as it was intended to be. Only one kind of statement is inherently unequivocal, and that is the purely quantitative, of which the type is "two and two make four" and the development is constituted by mathematical formulae of all degrees of complexity. Quantity by itself has no significance, however elaborate its formulation; in order to be significant it must be related to something qualitatively distinguishable. In our efforts to obtain precision we are continually seeking to reduce quality to quantity, that is to say, to reduce reality to mathematical formulae. The result is that the great positive qualities: love, beauty, goodness, mercy, intelligence and so on, are relegated to a secondary position, as if they were purely human and subjective, whereas in reality they lie at the heart of everything. For the world, inanimate as well as animate, is constituted by the interaction of quality and quantity, which very broadly correspond to what we call "spirit" and "matter" respectively. In trying to express everything in terms appropriate to the "material" aspect alone we lose sight of the spirit. A statement having a qualitative significance can be perfectly precise, despite the fact that the possibility of misunderstanding cannot be eliminated.

[10] Our eschatological situation is beyond the reach of our imagination, which is derived entirely from our terrestrial experience. The symbolical image of it that most adequately suggests its reality to a particular sector of humanity is the image presented by the religion characteristic of that sector.

[11] The word "metaphysical" comes from the Greek. It does not mean "beyond the physical" in the current sense of the last word, but rather "beyond the natural," that is to say "beyond the observable." It is therefore equivalent to the Latin "supernatural," provided that the latter is understood literally and not in its degraded sense, in which it is applied to almost any unexplained phenomenon. Properly speaking, neither word is concerned with phenomena as such, but exclusively with the universal principles underlying all phenomena, explicable or otherwise; and that is as much as to say—with the "mystery" in the ancient sense (from a Greek word meaning "to be silent"). Therefore the language of metaphysic is always symbolical and not descriptive; it must leave room for the inexpressible. It can be outwardly very simple, like the language of the sacred Scriptures, but, whether outwardly simple or outwardly complex, it cannot be understood by anyone whose outlook is confined to the world of phenomena, however erudite and mentally agile he may be. Hence the frequent misuse of the word in all sorts of connections, and in particular its application to statements that are not in the least metaphysical.

[12] 11 The essential unity of the great religions resides in their conformity to this common metaphysical background, and in nothing else. That background has been called the "philosophia perennis"; it is the "undying wisdom" that is the heritage of the whole human race.
Cucu Mucu
QUOTE(Rehael @ 23 Jul 2009, 01:10 PM) *
Banuiesc ca tu nu poti daca pui asemenea intrebari.


Invartitul in jurul cozii e camuflajul lipsei de argumente. Ti-am adresat o lista de intrebari la care poti raspunde cu da sau nu. Poti alege sa raspunzi sau poti alege sa bati campii. Ce-ai bre cu campii aia de ii bati, ce ti-au facut? rofl.gif


Sheipi, pune in puii mei doar linkuri catre materiale, ca deja mi-e greata de posturi kilometirce, balmajite, copipastate de pe blogul vreunui ciumba-uamba... aum...aum...aum
Rehael
QUOTE(abis @ 23 Jul 2009, 05:28 PM) *
Daca ai fi aplecata in si mai mare masura spre dezbaterea ideilor si mai putin a persoanelor as fi inca si mai castigat.


Probabil crezi ca mi-a facut placere... smile.gif Sincer as fi vrut sa nu fi trebuit niciodata sa recurg la aceasta metoda. Dar din momentul in care am realizat ca pe acest forum oamenii de fapt nu discutau ci se luptau, pentru mine ramanea singura metoda cu o oarecare eficienta de a transforma razboiul, in care se zice ca totul este permis(...), intr-o discutie mai aproape de normal. Pot sa inteleg ca din anumite motive cineva, un om, poate antipatiza religiile, dar nu am putut fi de acord ca pentru acest motiv sa renunte la metodele cinstite de a dezbate problemele, mai ales ca discutiile erau tinute in domeniul spiritualitatii...


QUOTE
In acelasi spirit nu vad de ce un ateu si un crestin nu se pot respecta reciproc, chiar daca niciunul nu respecta ideile celuilalt referitoare la religie.


Oamenii conditioneaza respectul in functie de diverse motive care pot sa difere foarte mult de la o persoana la alta. Recunosc, eu il acord cuiva, indiferent de varsta, in primul rand pentru calitatile morale, pentru ca necinstea, nedreptatea, sunt lucrurile care cred ca ma fac sa sufar cel mai mult pe lume, desi poate ca ar trebui sa-l acord mai intai batranilor... Dar probabil ca stii ca sunt de exemplu si oameni care acorda respectul lor in primul rand celor cu bani multi. Eu nu le pot acorda acestora prea mult respect, desi exista si un motiv pentru care as acorda respect tuturor oamenilor...
Tu pentru ce motive acorzi respect? smile.gif


@cucu mucu

QUOTE
Invartitul in jurul cozii e camuflajul lipsei de argumente. Ti-am adresat o lista de intrebari la care poti raspunde cu da sau nu. Poti alege sa raspunzi sau poti alege sa bati campii.


Nu stiu, n-am vazut lista. Oricum eu nu te oblig nici sa-mi adresezi nimic, nici macar sa te invarti in jurul cozii cautand argumente. Ce ziceai ca vrei sa demonstrezi? A, ca frumoasa din padurea adormita nu exista. smile.gif
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 24 Jul 2009, 02:32 PM) *
Pot sa inteleg ca din anumite motive cineva, un om, poate antipatiza religiile, dar nu am putut fi de acord ca pentru acest motiv sa renunte la metodele cinstite de a dezbate problemele, mai ales ca discutiile erau tinute in domeniul spiritualitatii...

Ca sa nu apara alte neintelegeri, spune-mi te rog ce metode cinstite, cum le spui tu, poate adopta cineva pe topicul asta pentru a-si expune parerile sale negative referitoare la religie.
QUOTE
Tu pentru ce motive acorzi respect?

Respect generozitatea, sinceritatea, calmul, inteligenta, curajul, priceperea, altruismul, rabdarea, maternitatea, imaginatia, perseverenta, creativitatea, eruditia, blandetea si lista poate continua...

Nu stiu daca oamenii merita respect doar pentru ca intamplator s-au nascut cu niste ani buni inaintea noastra, insa cei in situatia asta trebuie tratati cu intelegere si deferenta; nu stiu daca oamenii merita respect doar pentru ca intamplator s-au nascut cu vagin, insa femeile trebuie tratate cu mai multa grija si atentie. Legat de cei care au bani si despre care spui ca nu poti sa-i respecti: unii merita respect, dupa parerea mea, depinde cum au obtinut acei bani si depinde ce anume inteleg sa faca cu ei. Legat de credinta: nu cred ca cineva merita respectat/apreciat doar pentru optiunea lui religioasa. Nu acord unui ateu din start un respect mai mare decat unui credincios, si nici invers. Nu ma asociez cu altii pe criterii religioase.

As prefera totusi sa nu focalizam discutia pe persoane, ci pe ideile, parerile, opiniile si argumentele fiecaruia.
Rehael
QUOTE(abis @ 24 Jul 2009, 03:10 PM) *
Ca sa nu apara alte neintelegeri, spune-mi te rog ce metode cinstite, cum le spui tu, poate adopta cineva pe topicul asta pentru a-si expune parerile sale negative referitoare la religie.
.........

As prefera totusi sa nu focalizam discutia pe persoane, ci pe ideile, parerile, opiniile si argumentele fiecaruia.


Una din idei iata ca tu singur ai spus-o. smile.gif Nu mai amenda ideea de religie in sine numai pe motivul ca exista unele persoane declarate religioase care nu s-ar comporta conform "standardelor" tale de comportament uman; mi se pare "corect" sa caut si eu apoi ateilor nod in papura. ohyeah.gif
...Dar sunt convinsa ca-ti aduci si tu aminte din experientele trecute ce anume nu ar putea sa-mi mai placa. rolleyes.gif In acest moment este un efort putin cam mare pentru mine sa mai fac o trecere in revista.
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 24 Jul 2009, 03:33 PM) *
Nu mai amenda ideea de religie in sine numai pe motivul ca exista unele persoane declarate religioase care nu s-ar comporta conform "standardelor"

Acele persoane sunt un argument pentru ideea pe care o sustin: faptul ca cineva este religios nu este o garantie ca este "mai moral" decat altcineva care este lipsit de religie; cei credinciosi nu sunt mai buni/cinstiti/morali decat ateii. Pretentia bisericii de a reprezenta "stalpul moral" al societatii este nejustificata. Odata acceptata aceasta idee dispare necesitatea de a o mai argumenta, prin exemple.
QUOTE
sunt convinsa ca-ti aduci si tu aminte din experientele trecute ce anume nu ar putea sa-mi mai placa

Sunt convins ca atunci cand doi oameni discuta este posibil ca unul sa expuna idei care celuilalt nu-i plac. Asa cum tie nu-ti plac unele lucruri din cele pe care le spun eu si reciproca poate fi valabila. Si sunt convins de asemenea ca niciunul dintre noi, atunci cand isi sustine punctul de vedere, nu o face cu intentia de a-l supara pe celalalt, ci doar expune lucrurile pe care le crede. Nu tin mortis nici sa te supar, nici sa-ti fac pe plac, ci doar sa ne confruntam ideile pentru a vedea unde este adevarul.
shapeshifter
QUOTE(Cucu Mucu @ 24 Jul 2009, 11:01 AM) *
Sheipi, pune in puii mei doar linkuri catre materiale, ca deja mi-e greata de posturi kilometirce, balmajite, copipastate de pe blogul vreunui ciumba-uamba... aum...aum...aum

tre să dovedeşti că meriţi... crezi în mine, dar în tine?
Rehael
QUOTE(abis @ 24 Jul 2009, 04:18 PM) *
Acele persoane sunt un argument pentru ideea pe care o sustin: faptul ca cineva este religios nu este o garantie ca este "mai moral" decat altcineva care este lipsit de religie;


Probabil ar putea fi adevarat dar nici pe departe nu poate fi un motiv antireligie.

QUOTE
cei credinciosi nu sunt mai buni/cinstiti/morali decat ateii.


Asta este parerea ta cu care eu nu pot fi de acord, ...cel putin cu formularea. Formularea corecta dupa parerea mea este "unii din cei credinciosi, poate ca nu sunt mai buni/cinstiti/morali decat ateii". Pentru ca ideea de cel mai moral inseamna deja ca ai iesit din "relativ" si te-ai conectat la Absolut sau Divin, chiar daca ti-e greu sa-ti imaginezi cum se poate si daca se poate intampla asta. smile.gif

QUOTE
Pretentia bisericii de a reprezenta "stalpul moral" al societatii este nejustificata. Odata acceptata aceasta idee dispare necesitatea de a o mai argumenta, prin exemple.


Ti se pare... Si nu poti sa ai pretentia ca altcineva sa accepte o idee care tie ti se pare ca e corecta. smile.gif


QUOTE
Sunt convins ca atunci cand doi oameni discuta este posibil ca unul sa expuna idei care celuilalt nu-i plac. Asa cum tie nu-ti plac unele lucruri din cele pe care le spun eu si reciproca poate fi valabila. Si sunt convins de asemenea ca niciunul dintre noi, atunci cand isi sustine punctul de vedere, nu o face cu intentia de a-l supara pe celalalt, ci doar expune lucrurile pe care le crede. Nu tin mortis nici sa te supar, nici sa-ti fac pe plac, ci doar sa ne confruntam ideile pentru a vedea unde este adevarul.


Da, tocmai de aceea ti-am aratat mereu si "reciproca", poate, poate ai putea sa-ti dai seama ca rulezi pe o pista gresita. smile.gif
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 24 Jul 2009, 05:57 PM) *
nici pe departe nu poate fi un motiv antireligie

Nici n-am spus ca ar fi un motiv antireligie.

Asa cum tu crezi ca o lume crestina, eventual crestin-ortodoxa, ar fi mai buna decat cea de acum, si eu cred ca o lume cu mai putina religie ar fi una mai buna. Nu ar trebui niciunul dintre noi sa se simta ofensat de parerea celuilalt.
QUOTE
Formularea corecta dupa parerea mea este "unii din cei credinciosi, poate ca nu sunt mai buni/cinstiti/morali decat ateii"

Ca sa fim rigurosi ar trebui sa spunem ca doar apartenenta la o religie sau la ateism a cuiva nu este o garantie ca respectivul este mai bun/cinstit/moral decat altcineva cu alta orientare religioasa. Cred ca este formularea cea mai cuprinzatoare si cea mai corecta.
QUOTE
Si nu poti sa ai pretentia ca altcineva sa accepte o idee care tie ti se pare ca e corecta

Asa cum nici eu nu pot accepta ideile care altora li se par corecte... Ramane de vazut care dintre ele, ideile mele sau celelalte, sunt mai bine sustinute prin argumente.
QUOTE
de aceea ti-am aratat mereu si "reciproca", poate, poate ai putea sa-ti dai seama ca rulezi pe o pista gresita

Daca spui ca este gresita, argumenteaza atacand ideea, nu pe cel care a emis-o. Si poate ca vei fi convingatoare.


PS: Pana luni voi lipsi, si sper ca, dupa ce ma voi intoarce, vom reusi sa continuam dialogul de unde l-am lasat, pe baze mai bune decat cele de pana acum. Uneori discutia cu tine este o reala placere. smile.gif
Rehael
QUOTE(abis @ 24 Jul 2009, 06:52 PM) *
Nici n-am spus ca ar fi un motiv antireligie.

Asa cum tu crezi ca o lume crestina, eventual crestin-ortodoxa, ar fi mai buna decat cea de acum, si eu cred ca o lume cu mai putina religie ar fi una mai buna. Nu ar trebui niciunul dintre noi sa se simta ofensat de parerea celuilalt.


Si care-i logica din concluzia ta legat de ce spuneam?
Eu am zis doar ca acela nu este un motiv real de a fi antireligie, si, interesant, vad ca tu esti de acord. smile.gif
Si cu toate ca esti de acord cu ce spuneam totusi continui zicand ca "stii, eu totusi cred ca o lume cu mai putina religie ar fi mai buna". rofl.gif
Pai care este pana la urma motivul pentru care crezi asa, daca motivul pus initial de tine nu poate fi antireligie?
Uite, eu nu am nimic cu tine ca nu poti sa fii credincios, dar tu ce ai cu noi? smile.gif



QUOTE
Ca sa fim rigurosi ar trebui sa spunem ca doar apartenenta la o religie sau la ateism a cuiva nu este o garantie ca respectivul este mai bun/cinstit/moral decat altcineva cu alta orientare religioasa. Cred ca este formularea cea mai cuprinzatoare si cea mai corecta.


Cred ca ai zis bine.

QUOTE
Asa cum nici eu nu pot accepta ideile care altora li se par corecte... Ramane de vazut care dintre ele, ideile mele sau celelalte, sunt mai bine sustinute prin argumente.


Pai ai uitat ca este de fapt vorba despre argumente rationale vizavi argumente irationale? Ce facem, ne apucam iar sa dansam "Perinita" cu batista Desdemonei?


QUOTE
Daca spui ca este gresita, argumenteaza atacand ideea, nu pe cel care a emis-o. Si poate ca vei fi convingatoare.


Ei, lasa, daca nu eram convingatoare, sigur nu mai discutai in acest moment cu mine. ohyeah.gif
Asta e semn ca totusi ideea a fost atacata si ca nu a fost vina mea, nu-i asa, ca a trebuit sa patrund cumva pana la ea, cum nici tu nu te-ai simtit vinovat cand te-ai trezit "invitat" cu bocancii in sufletul crestinilor cu care conversai. nonono.gif Cand tu ai sa recunosti ca nu ai fost atunci ok, am sa-mi cer si eu scuze pentru ca te-am numit tradator de neam si tara.

LE Pentru ca nu am dat totusi raspunsul complet la o problema pusa de tine si anume:
"Asa cum tu crezi ca o lume crestina, eventual crestin-ortodoxa, ar fi mai buna decat cea de acum, si eu cred ca o lume cu mai putina religie ar fi una mai buna."
Nu prea ai nimerit-o in ceea ce priveste ce cred eu. Si ca sa fii totusi lamurit iti voi spune ca eu cred ca fiecare ar trebui sa aiba religia care il poate face mai bun (la suflet, nu in sensul de mai tare), si totul in raport cu propria lui fiinta, nu comparandu-se cu altii. Si probabil chiar asa se intampla, de aceea nu imi permit sa am la modul serios ceva personal cu ateii, dar cu propaganda antireligie, da (pentru ca e ilogica tongue.gif). ( E de fapt o idee adoptata din cartile lui NS Lazarev.)
Cucu Mucu
QUOTE(Rehael @ 24 Jul 2009, 02:32 PM) *
Nu stiu, n-am vazut lista. Oricum eu nu te oblig nici sa-mi adresezi nimic, nici macar sa te invarti in jurul cozii cautand argumente. Ce ziceai ca vrei sa demonstrezi? A, ca frumoasa din padurea adormita nu exista. smile.gif


Probabil ca e de la caldura, refuz sa cred altceva! ohyeah.gif Insiruirea aia de intrebari pe care ti le adresasem semana izbitor de mult cu o lista, dar deh, trollii trebuia sa traiasca si ei din ceva. Aroganta ta stupida nu face decat sa ma distreze, uneori! rofl.gif

QUOTE(seipsiftar)
tre să dovedeşti că meriţi... crezi în mine, dar în tine?

Ba, in tine nu cred ca nu stiu ce iti poate capu', ramane sa ma convingi. Da' in mine cred mai mult decat crezi tu in zeii tai!
abis
QUOTE(Rehael @ 24 Jul 2009, 07:40 PM) *
Eu am zis doar ca acela nu este un motiv real de a fi antireligie, si, interesant, vad ca tu esti de acord.

Bineinteles. Faptul ca unii preoti sau calugari calca stramb nu-i un motiv antireligie. Ei sunt doar un exemplu care arata ca religia nu schimba lumea in bine. Motivul pentru care cred eu ca lumea ar fi mai buna cu mai putina religie nu tine de aceste exemple. Pur si simplu parerea mea este ca o lume in care oamenii se procupa mai putin de prieteni imaginari le permite sa se concentreze mai mult pe problemele lor reale, care in acest fel pot fi mult mai usor eliminate.
QUOTE
eu nu am nimic cu tine ca nu poti sa fii credincios, dar tu ce ai cu noi?

Nu am nimic cu tine ori cu oricare altul pentru ca sunteti credinciosi. Cel putin atat timp cat nu ma numiti in public "dihor", "comunist", "criminal" ori in alte feluri; cel putin atat timp cat va construiti biserici cu banii vostri, fara a va folosi de ai mei; cel putin atat timp cat nu imi indoctrinati copiii pentru a fi credinciosi ca si voi. Nu am pretentii prea mari, ci cer doar lucruri simple si de bun-simt.
QUOTE
e semn ca totusi ideea a fost atacata

Este doar semn ca nu mi-am pierdut speranta ca, in ciuda faptului ca pana acum nu mi-ai atacat argumentele, ci doar m-ai ironizat personal, putem avea o discutie civilizata, din care amandoi sa iesim castigati. Este un semn ca am decis sa vin spre tine cu o ramura de maslin incercand sa duc discutia dintre noi pe alt palier, avand convingerea ca dialogul este mai bun decat razboiul, ca raspunzandu-ti in acelasi stil nu se va rezolva niciodata nimic si ca nu vom patrunde astfel dincolo de aparente catre o comunicare adevarata...
QUOTE
Cand tu ai sa recunosti ca nu ai fost atunci ok, am sa-mi cer si eu scuze pentru ca te-am numit tradator de neam si tara.

Nu trebuie sa-ti ceri scuze, faptul ca m-ai numit asa mi s-a parut atat de amuzant, incat mi-a inveselit toata ziua. smile.gif
Nici macar in urma "luptelor" inversunate de la Politica nu m-a catalogat cineva asa. Bine, m-am gandit initial sa te intreb de unde pana unde ti-a venit o asemenea idee, insa m-am gandit ca daca vrei sa-mi spui de ce crezi ca sunt tradator, imi vei spune tu oricum.
QUOTE
eu cred ca fiecare ar trebui sa aiba religia care il poate face mai bun

Mea culpa, daca n-am nimerit-o... Deci nu conteaza care este adevarul despre religie, important este sa o credem pe aceea care ne face sa fim mai buni? Este mai bine sa credem o minciuna frumoasa, decat sa acceptam un adevar neplacut?
shapeshifter
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Este mai bine sa credem o minciuna frumoasa, decat sa acceptam un adevar neplacut?
------------
care? aia că te tragi din maimuţă? mă, poate unii chiar se trag! unii din maimuţă, ceilalţi din Dumnezeu! Eşti împăcat acu? Poţi dormi noaptea ca să nu mai postezi pe topicul de Atei într-o arie de credinţă şi religie? să mori tu că poţi?
Rehael
QUOTE(abis @ 27 Jul 2009, 01:05 AM) *
Bineinteles. Faptul ca unii preoti sau calugari calca stramb nu-i un motiv antireligie. Ei sunt doar un exemplu care arata ca religia nu schimba lumea in bine.


Aceste fraze demonstreaza ca ai o imagine deosebit de superficiala in primul rand despre ceea ce inseamna omul, mda, "modelul tras la xerox" propagat de comunisti; acum chiar nu ma mai mira ca in ultimii ani ai lui Ceausescu disparusera si facultatile de psihologie de pe la noi.
abureala
QUOTE(abis @ 27 Jul 2009, 01:05 AM) *
se va rezolva niciodata nimic si ca nu vom patrunde astfel dincolo de aparente catre o comunicare adevarata...



"Eu cand vorbesc cu un ateu este ca si cum vorbesc cu usa" - Petre Tutea. Nu te-ai lamurit in atatia ani de adevarul acestei fraze ? Cati ani iti mai trebuie sa o intelegi? Inca 1000? Apropo, stii ce inseamna comunicare? Definitia ei . Arata-mi unde am comunicat vreodata. Peretii au mai mult ecou, ti-am mai spus.

ps. Te rog sa nu imi raspunzi. Oricum , nu vom comunica vreodata. Iti salvezi 3 minute din viata.
abis
QUOTE(abureala @ 29 Jul 2009, 04:19 PM) *
"Eu cand vorbesc cu un ateu este ca si cum vorbesc cu usa" - Petre Tutea. Nu te-ai lamurit in atatia ani de adevarul acestei fraze ?

Noroc ca majoritatea credinciosilor nu sunt atat de obtuzi, fanatici, primitivi si intoleranti. Daca ar fi toti pe calapodul asta, ne-am reintoarce in Evul Mediu.
QUOTE
Arata-mi unde am comunicat vreodata

Tu? Nicaieri, dar nu despre tine vorbeam, ci despre alti credinciosi care sunt, in marea lor majoritate, oameni de treaba.
QUOTE
Te rog sa nu imi raspunzi.

Daca mi te adresezi, iti raspund. Daca nu ai chef sa citesti ce scriu, nu te obliga nimeni sa o faci... Iti salvezi 3 minute din viata. Sau mai multe, ca uneori scriu mai mult... Timp in care poti sa mergi la o biserica, sa spui o rugaciune, sa mai faci o manifstatie impotriva homosexualilor ori a cipului satanic din pasaport...
abis
Se intampla in SUA: un copil de sapte ani a fugit cu masina ca sa nu mearga la biserica.

Aparent amuzanta, stirea ridica totusi cateva semne de intrebare grave: cat de mult trebuie sa-si terorizeze parintii copilul ca sa ia decizii atat de radicale? Cat de iresponsabil trebuie sa fie un parinte care isi determina copilul sa-si ia lumea in cap? Ca sa nu mai spun de lasarea cheilor de la masina la indemana pustiului...
shapeshifter
în SUA orice e posibil... dar de puştiul ăla de 10 ani găsit în comă alcoolică pe stradă ce zici?

la fel cum un tâmpit citind Biblia, se poate crede Irod şi omorî 20 de copii nevinovaţi şi să mai şi creadă că nu merge-n iad... vezi filmul Changeling făcut după un caz real de prin anii 20 în SUA...
Cla
Ar fi bine shapeshifter, sa ramâi la topicurele tale.
Nu te lua de mine, ca s-ar putea sa te alegi cu un fiasco.
Si crede-ma ca stiu despre ce vorbesc. Nu ma stârni.
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