Studiu de caz - iata unde poate duce indemnul 'Cresteti si va inmultiti' - povestea lui Steve din Texas (casatorit cu o femeie, divortat, acum gay...)


Like most of my friends, I required he help of a therapist to become comfortable with who I am. Though, I guess I’ve know I was gay since I was fourteen, I didn’t allow myself to come out of the closet until I was twenty-eight, just two years ago. I married a woman when I was twenty-three and divorced her when I was twenty-seven…. the divorce was because she was spawned from Hell and not because I was a closeted gay. So, at the end of one of my sessions, my therapist asked me to go home and write down what I was thinking. I was supposed to write about my fears, my confusion, my doubts, and my anger… in hopes that I could discover why I felt so much guilt for being who I was. Below is a summery of those writing sessions. It's amazing how much one's life can change when they finally have the strength to accept who they are. It actually took a year after I accepted that I was gay to actually ACCEPT that I was gay.

June 99' First Session:

Let's start with the divorce. In a nutshell.... we didn’t have sex, she didn’t respond to me emotionally, she took advantage of me, she abused me, she ignored me, she cheated on me…and her motor skills stopped just short of being able to pick a piece of clothing off the floor and place it on a hanger. So why was I upset when we divorced? Well, I thought it was because of the way she caused it. I worked my ass off to put her through school, I left California so she could be with her family, I gave up my acting career so I could support us, I stopped writing so we could have time together, I gave up my friends so I could do the things she wanted to do, I lived in poverty so she could buy the things she wanted….and when she cheated on me she fu*king lied to me about it. She denied it up to and passed the day we signed the divorce, passed the day she moved in with him, got pregnant by him, and married him – yet she still says noting was going on between them. The minute after I found out I went to the library and checked out a book called "How to do your own divorce in Texas for $154.00". The worst part about filling out the divorce papers was when I had to call her and ask what city we were married in - you would think I set her hair on fire by her rather harsh reaction. Actually, that was about the only emotion I saw during the whole divorce process. She was more worried about what other people thought about her. She couldn’t give a shit what I was going through, she only cared what her friends thought. She watched me disintegrate in front of her, my whole life crumbling around me, depression, seas of tears, and she never showed one ounce of regret, love, emotion, sympathy, understanding….all she cared about was her.

To be honest, my life felt like it ended that summer - by going out of her way to make me hate her - she managed to destroy the last shred of confidence, self respect, and dignity I had. She wasn’t happy until I was a huddled up ball in the corner cry because my entire life was gone. All I thought I wanted was something to register that the last 5 years of my life were not for nothing. Some say it's better to forgive - they were never married to my ex-wife. I have no problem hating her for what she did to me, hating her for making me go through all that pain. I have no problem hating her family for never calling me. And hating her sister for dropping our friendship and keeping my niece away from me. I hate my friends because most of them knew she was cheating on me. But, most of all, I hate myself for letting our marriage last so long - knowing who I really was.

Yes, I knew I was gay. I knew I was gay since I was twelve years old. I know she had her suspicions, but I don’t know if she really knew I was gay, I don’t know what she was thinking - she would never tell me. So.... except for my family I was basically alone - no one knew what to do with me - I was "DIVORCED". That is a whole different category than single or married - divorced means FAILED. I FAILED. I am no longer single, I am no longer married - I am divorced. I knew I was better off - so, why was I upset?

July 99’ Second Entry:

"I’ve been trying to think of exactly what in my life needs altering, what needs to be changed, what insight, need, want or desire I’m missing. Why don’t I feel whole? Why can’t I get myself up in the morning. Why do I feel like there is nothing to wake up to. Am I missing a purpose? Am I missing some sort of divine path I’m supposed to be following toward some sort of dream or destiny planed out for me when I believed in myself. I feel lost, stuck in shadow world with no way to get back home. I feel disorientated, disillusioned, and disconnected with everyone and every thing around me. It’s as if every thing has stopped making sense. Everything changed, nothing is what I planed it to be nor is it something I feel I can adapt to. I feel as if the direction I’m heading is completely off the path I was meant to take - but I am too afraid to go backward in order to retrace m steps. My life was all planed out for me, by me, when I was in college. I had dreams, my goals, my love for life and living - then I got married and I managed to sacrifice my very being to make this person happy - I sacrificed my own happiness so she could have hers.

I feel angry, depressed, and totally disorientated. I want to move away, I want to leave here, I want to start my life over again - but I’m afraid. I don’t want to be poor again, I don’t want to give up all the good things I have, the friends I’ve made, but I’m measurable. I feel taped by my own....

August 99’ I'm "OUT" Guilt Free:

What they say is true, the truth will set you free. Admittedly, I am far from being cured, but I am finally on the right path, I finally told someone what was really pressing against the back of my mind - the cause of my gilt, the cause of my depression, the reason I couldn’t forgive my ex-wife. It wasn’t because she cheated on me, it wasn’t because she disrespected, hurt, manipulated, or dejected me - it was because she never thanked me. I have been waiting for the past two years for Amy to call me up and tell me that she had made a mistake. I have been wishing that I would pass her on the street and she would tell me that her life would have been better if she had stayed with me. I have been waiting for her to admit she was wrong - but I knew deep in the back of my mind that it would never happen. It wasn’t until today that I realized who I was truly angry with - it was me. Yes she hurt me, yes she caused the divorce - but she also did me the biggest favor anyone has or will ever do. She forced me out of five years worth of lies and deception into the path of truth. She forced me out of my "make believe, suburban safe world" into the world I have been avoiding since I was 7 years old. Through her abject and malicious cruelty she forced me to re-evaluate my life and accept who I really was....

I’M GAY!!!!!!!

Yes mom and dad, yes family, yes friends, yes world!!!! I’m Gay. I spent half of my life pretending to be the ideal American boy - secretly depressed and having no idea why. I just never pictured my self as gay. I waned the family, the house, the kids, the income, the car…my whole life was planed for me by the time I was fourteen - I knew what I HAD to be when I "grew up" - there were no choices. So, when I started seeing some of my friends in a "different way" and became excited every time someone mentioned a sleep-over, I did every thing I could to brainwash myself back into the world I was supposed to be in - and didn’t emerge again until the summer of my sixteenth year. I was working at a restaurant in Mission Viejo, California and I was going through the late stages of puberty pretty hard. I was dating girls, having sex with them, but I never really seemed to fully enjoy it like everyone said I was supposed to. I thought I wasn’t doing it right, or that I kept picking women who new nothing about sex except you insert object “A” into slot “B”. I will never forget the day I was working behind the counter and a cut guy, I guess he was eighteen or something, walked up to my register . I gave him his change and it suddenly occurred to me that he was flirting with me. I didn’t know how to react at first. I just smiled and shrugged it off. I felt disgusted that he would actually hit on me, but I was suddenly over come by a curiosity that pushed away that disgust. In short, I wanted him!!!! Suddenly, I found myself running out the front door hoping catch him before he drove away. I was breathing heavy. I felt scared but exhilarated at the same time. My adrenaline was pumping, thoughts were running through my mind like; were could we do it? In his car? Were his parent’s gone? Did he live alone? How would we do it (I still wasn’t sure what gay men did besides give each other blow jobs). Unfortunately this high expense of lust filled energy was for nothing, he was gone and I felt a kind of sadness come over me. I really wanted to experience it - but I had no idea why - why did I want to have sex with this boy? What was wrong with me?

That week I threw out all of my porno mags (all women) because I felt dirty and needed to be cleansed (part of my southern Baptist background I guess). In fact, I've done this cleansing quite a few times in my life - and it always seemed to happen right after I started having thoughts about men.

Moving on..... seventeen through eighteen. I found myself with women - a lot of them. I was what you would call a "slut". But I never seemed go out with them without my male friends tagging along. I loved my friends, and loved sleeping over at their houses, in their beds, next to them, with only our underwear separating us. I know it sounds bad, but I never thought of having sex with them. I just liked how it felt to lie next to them, though I must admit there were a few times I wished they would role over and kiss me. I guess the women I had sex with were supposed to be proof that I was still heading down the right road - and not becoming "funny". This went on all throughout high school. In fact, I recently looked back at a group of journals I wrote during my senior in creative writing class and never realized until then exactly how much denial I was in. On the outside I looked like the kid who had everything, friends, great family, girls, popularity - I loved it all - but in my journals I described a troubled kid, someone who was living a false identity, someone who wished to commit suicide, someone crying out for help, for the truth, for the chance to scream to the world that something wasn’t right! It wasn’t until a friend of mine and I went up to LA that I got my first glance at the "HOMOSEXAUL ACT". We were up there for an audition and saw an adult video store down the block, so we decided to go in. I remember being amazed by all the pictures and videos of sex everywhere. I had never seen anything like it - then I saw the "Alternative" area. Magazines, videos, autographed pictures - at first I was disgusted, Jason (a born again Christian - who, I guess, shouldn’t have been in there in the first place) picked up a magazine with a young boy giving another boy head on the front cover and pointed out how sad the boys eyes looked (like it was some sort of act the boy was forced into for money or drugs or something). Personally, I didn’t care why the boy was doing it, I just wanted to see what they were doing inside the magazine. My dick got hard just a looking at the cover. Jason didn’t notice and we quickly walked out of that section and into the video arcade room. I went in one of the booths with my quarters (we had both seen X-rated movies before, but I was not prepared for what I saw). One of the channels had three men (good looking men) going at it quite strongly. Other channels had the same things - and more - my dick got hard, the sudden thought of masturbating came to me, but Jason was in the cube right next to me - and I was sure I would get caught. So, I got nervous and turned back to a woman and a man doing something (I really don’t remember). We left the store and my mind felt more horny and confused that I ever before. So, out of guilt, I went home and threw away all of my dirty videos ( I think, It was sometime around then that I started feeling guilt again and found the need to fill my life with God). I guess that was one of the things that kept me from coming out when I was in high school, God. I was deeply afraid that my thoughts of men would lead me to Hell. In fact, now I can remember asking for forgiveness every time I masturbated and thought of one of my friends (which, now that I think of it, was quite often). So college came, and I had sex for the first time with a man, then another man - it was the most amazing experience I had ever had. Thirty minutes later I felt guilty. One month later I met my ex wife. One year later I was married. Actually, she could have been anyone, but it would still have ended the same way (probably sooner). I just happened to meet a viscous bitch who would manipulate me enough to make me try and be the best husband I could be. I did everything I was supposed to - but it was an act and I knew it. It never felt right, I started hating having sex with her (except when she gave me a blow job and I could close my eyes and pretend it was a man). Yes it was wrong, yes I lied to her, but it was because I was lying to myself. I wanted to be the perfect husband, but I couldn’t. Denial or not, I knew I was gay. I manage Secretly I wanted it to end, I dreamed of her getting in an accident, a plain crash, or to leave me. I wanted to tell her, I wanted to scream out that I liked men and wanted a divorce- but the perfect husband would never do that - so it took her treating me like shit, cheating on me, lying to me, ignoring me, and humiliating me for me to finally get the divorce. The only thing I was really upset about was that I realized I was not going to have that perfect life I planed for since I was seven years old. I was not going to have a wife, I may not have kids, I may be Gay - I am Gay- and I will always be Gay. Yes I should have never gotten married to her, but I were just doing what I thought was right - she hurt me on purpose - I never meant any harm. I am now free to forgive her. I am free to forgive myself. I am gay. I tried to live the life planed out for me, but deep inside I knew it would never last. I am free. I can finally leave the past behind, bringing with me the knowledge it gave. I can begin again. Hi, I’m Steve…and I’m Gay!!!!

After A Conversation With my Mom: August 99

I just got off the phone with my mom. She keeps asking me questions like, “where did you go?”, “What clubs are you going to?”, “who did you go with?”…and so on. Well, for the past 4 months I have been feeling pretty overwhelmed by everything, I felt like something in me was about to explode. Well it did. I’m tired of having to pretend that what I am going through is just a phase. As I have said before I have ignored this for way too long, I tried to date women, have sex with women, and even marry a woman. I’ve even tried dating women again – but it’s not going to work. I AM GAY. And I’m sick of feeling guilty for it. I’m sick of beating my self up for it. I’m sick of having to walk around on egg shells afraid of making my parents feel uneasy. I’m sorry, this is who I am, this is who I’ll be, and I don’t give a fu*k what other people think about it anymore. I need to forgive myself for being so angry and depressed and sick at the homosexual thoughts that have plagued my since I was twelve yeas old. When I say plagued, I mean haunted me, wanting to break out from behind the walls of conformity, ignorance, and religion. I didn’t know exactly what gay was, I didn’t know I had a choice, I didn’t know I could redirect my life the way I wanted it. All my life I have been directing myself the way others told me I should, the correct way, the right way, the God fearing way, the politically correct way…it’s all bullshit. I want to be me!!!! I don’t want to be the prefect son. I don’t want to be the perfect Christian. I don’t want to be the perfect anything….I just want to be me. I’m not exactly sure who that is, but I finally feel free enough to find out. To thine own self be true…I never understood the depth of that phrase, I never understood that I was simply following a map that was made for me. Go to school, get good grades, date women, go to college, date women, find wife, graduate, get job, get married, have kids, have grandkids, retire, and die. I can look back at several instances when I wanted to break out of all that – I tried, and tried but every time I did I felt guilty, pulled back to the path that I was comfortable with. I had the chance to escape, but I was too scared to do it. So, my parents. They would rather believe that I was going through a phase, angry at women, in shock, in pain, insane – but not gay. Every time I’m around them I feel like I’m thrown back onto that same path my mind has been striving so hard to escape from. I’m not avoiding any deep issues, I’m not escaping women, I’m not afraid of being hurt again – I’ve just decided to finally, for the first time in my life, to be true to myself. And it hurts me to see my parents reaction – I know they don’t mean it – but if they really looked back on my life, they would see for themselves that I have been gay all along. They should be happy that I can finally look at myself in the mirror and see who I am, I don’t have to lie to myself any more. My marriage was a joke, I had no right to be in it. I just did it so I could stay on that path I was supposed to be on – according to every one around me. Deep in my mind, on the day I was married, I had hoped that she would not show up. The whole thing was all an act. Everything was an act for my family to see that I wasn’t gay, so I could prove to myself that I wasn’t gay.

It feels so good to finally admit this. I’ve seen it in the back of my mind for so many years that it just seemed like some kind of tumor that needed to be ignored. The thoughts, the feelings, all of it was ignored – especially during my marriage - we could have ended it civilly – either way she did me the biggest favor anyone has ever done – she knocked me off the path and freed me to finally explore who I really was – who I am.

Sure, it’s taken me two years to admit this, but I’ve been trying to act straight for the past seventeen years of my life – when you've lied to yourself that much, its hard to see anything else. So, my parents still want to believe in the lie. They still want me to say everything is going to be alright, everything is going to go back to normal, this is just a phase, I still like women sexually, I still want that family, with the wife, the kids, the car, the retirement….and so on. Well, that’s over with. No more lies, no more hiding. I’m not going to put on a dress and show up at a family reunion spouting lines from a Betty Davis movie, but I’m not going to deny myself either.

“So Steve, are you dating any one?”

“Yes”

“What’s her name?”

“His name is Brian.”

“er…..what?”

“Brian…my boyfriend. He’ll be over in a little while, we’re getting married in Hawaii tomorrow and I though you all should meet him first.”

I would love to have that happen, but my Dad explicitly told me I still had to lie (or pretend) until my grandmother died – and dammit, she looks like she’s going to out live me!!!!! So, I’m falling farther and farther away from my family, I don’t feel comfortable around my aunts or uncles any more – and I especially don’t feel comfortable around my grandmother. This is very sad considering our family has always been very close. I DON’T WANT TO FEEL GUILTY ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m tired of it, it’s breaking me, depressing me, it’s keeping me from moving on. The guilt, the lies, the pretending, I’m not going to lie to them anymore. If they want to know who I’m with I’ll tell them, where I went, what I’m doing, I’ll tell them and if they don’t like it they can stop asking - which would push me away even further.

January 2000 - Final Entry... for now:

So, what now. I’ve spent the last year and a half trying to come out of the closet. I’ve gone though the "wow phase" (where I was like a kid in a candy store), which led to my "slut phase" (were Daisy Dukes and a box of condoms were all I bought out with me to the clubs), then to my "denial phase" (where I dated women again), then my "fu*k it phase" (where I just wanted it to all end because I was sick of all the lies, and hiding), and now I in the "acceptance phase" – though I’m still having trouble with it. What am I accepting? That I’m Gay? Yes. That I have no future in politically correct society? Possibly. That I will never have a deep relationship with anyone – I hope not. I guess I’m supposed to be planning a goal, a reason for living – besides waiting for the next holiday or circuit party. The problem is that I’m not ready to domesticate myself yet, I already did that once and I did it too soon, so now I’m catching up on all the craziness I missed out on – and I’m having a blast. Sure, my life could be more rewarding, but exactly what is that, what does rewarding mean? Does it mean you do a good job at work and get over looked, does it mean join clubs, take piano lessons, make models, collect pennies, learn how to ballroom dance, run with the bulls, move to the suburbs.... macramé? I actually have no idea what I want right now – except to live with peace of mind, great friends, and a few ethics – a boyfriend would be nice. I’m working on the ethics part too.

By the way, my parents have asked that I bring one of my boyfriends over to meet them, strange what time will do.

Sa va aud, specialistilor...

Nicodim, nu ca m-ar deranja prea mult engleza, dar prefer sa analozez situatia in limba romana in care inteleg mai bine, te-as ruga daca ai vrea ca alta data sa faci un rezumat sau daca poti sa traduci.
Eu vorbesc engleza, scriu in engleza, dar nu-mi prea place engleza sa o folosesc daca nu sunt nevoit (ex: cand un american, mormon, ma intreaba ceva pe strada ii raspund, dar nu-mi place sa vorbesc prea mult engleza sau sa citesc)

Papa condamna casatoriile intre homosexuali

Papa Ioan Paul II a cerut, sambata, autoritatilor sa inceteze oficializarea casatoriilor intre persoane de acelasi sex, Sfantul Parinte declarand ca astfel de persoane degradeaza adevaratul sens al ideii de mariaj, acela dintre un barbat si o femeie, informeaza Agentia AP. Este pentru a doua oara, in decurs de o saptamana, cand Sanctitatea Sa a abordat aceasta problema, care este principala stire in presa americana, avand in vedere ca, in orase precum San Francisco ori New Paltz, se oficiaza casatorii intre homosexuali si intre lesbiene. Curtea Suprema din California a refuzat o cerere de stopare imediata a casatoriilor intre homosexuali si de anulare a casatoriilor deja oficializate. Peste 3.400 de cupluri de lesbiene si homosexuali si-au implinit visul, acela de a-si legaliza relatia.

Sursa: Gardianul.ro

Deja am raspuns la Dezbateri.

Hmm,
Cuvantul "mariaj"... Stiu ca devin rautacioasa dar Papa ar trebui sa faca mai intai ceva cu preotii astia catolici care calca p-alaturea, nu cu femei ci cu baieti sub 13 ani si apoi sa se ocupe de altele mult mai importante decat casatoria intre homosexuali. Culmea ca numarul cazurilor de violuri si abuz se inmulteste!! Ce se alege de "moralitatea crestina" din ziua de azi? Tot Papa ar trebui sa stie ca cei care duc Cuvantul lui Dumnezeu in America de Sud muncesc mana in mana cu companiile petroliere ca sa distruga habitatul indienilor si sa ii omoare pe capete, sa ii goneasca de pe pamanturile lor ca sa poata extrage petrol in liniste. Si culmea, Papa e preocupat de casatoriile dintre oameni care se iubesc sincer si care nu vor nimic decat pace si sa fie lasati... in pace. Mai nou si KKK e impotriva lor!

Cat despre cuvantul "mariaj"... cred ca vrem noi sa insemne "uniunea dintre un barbat si o femeie" asa cum toate cuvintele pot fi interpretate in functie de o gramada de factori. Stiti voi: educatie, blah-blah, blah-blah, interese... Iar aici e vorba de interese si de "moralitatea crestina". Nu stiu mai nimic despre rata de divort in comunitatea gay dar stiu cate ceva despre rata de divort in comunitatea crestina si nu arata roz, cu toate rugaciunile si credinta de care membrii ei dau dovada.

Cum le porti tu grija altora!?...lasa ca de Papa are cine sa aiba grija si de acei preoti la fel.
Si nu sunt chiar asa de multi cum se spune in presa de scandal care exagereaza mereu...iar in America nu ma mir, la cata imoralitate e acolo asta e mai nimic.
In Europa nu sunt asemenea cazuri, dar in America unde se accepta orice (fii sigura ca nu numai preotii au abuzat de copii, ci si medici, inalti demnitari...acest flagel nu atinge numai preotii, ci si laicii indiferent de patura sociala).
Nu cred ca preotii catolici au companii de petrol, oricum aceia nu mai sunt preoti din moemnt ce se ocupa de afaceri, nu mai au dreptul de a exercita functia lor pastorala.

Rata de divort este cea mai mica in Biserica Catolica si se stie de ce si e normal sa fie asa.

"acest flagel nu atinge numai preotii, ci si laicii indiferent de patura sociala"

Da, de acord, dar preotii care fac asa ceva sunt mai de condamnat decat ceilalti.

"Rata de divort este cea mai mica in Biserica Catolica si se stie de ce si e normal sa fie asa."

De ce ?

Biserica Catolica interzice divortul. Nu stiu daca exprimarea este cea corecta.

Ma rog, pe undeva pe acolo, TriRegnum ne va spune exact. Dar aceasta masura nu scade numarul adulterelor, din pacate.

Preotii vor fi mult mai aspru judecati de Dumnezeu, ma doare intr-adevar ca exista si preoti care fac asemenea lucruri. Biserica indeamna mereu pe credinciosi sa se roage pentru preoti, dar si acestia la randul lor sa se roage pentru ei insisi; cele mai multe asemenea fapte comise sunt de le cei trecuti de 40 de ani cand sunt in plina criza, cirza care la oamenii celibatari (mai ales preoti) are un impact puternic si efecte groaznice. (multi renunta, sunt in stari depresive...ce mai? e groaznic)
Un preot trebuie sa fie un alt Cristos si in el sa se oglindeasca imaginea Mantuitorului, dar suntem oameni si e imposibil sa nu cadem in vreun pacat cat de mic, dar acestea sunt groaznice.

In Biserica Catolica divorturile bisericesti nu sunt date decat cu emitere de decret semnat de Papa el avand cheile poate desface orice in cer si pe pamant. Doi tineri catolici cand vor sa se casatoreasca timp de sase luni merg la ore de cateheza la preot astfel acesta "predandu-le" morala catolica si le spune despre casatorie ca este indisolubila ("ei vor fi un singur trup", si mai spune in Evanghelie ca divortul nu e permis, iar cel ce se casatoreaste a doua oara savarseste adulter), cei doi tineri sunt "studiati" preotul observand ce anume le-ar putea face rau si astfel sa duca la divort si multe alte mici defecte pe care va incerca in aceasta perioada sa le corecteze.
Daca un cuplu casatorit catolic vrea sa divorteze, atunci preotul intervine si ii cheama din nou la cateheza si astfel se va vedea ce anume scartaie in mariajul lor si astfel vor fi ajutati sa-si revina si nu putine sunt cazurile unde lipsa de comunicare face ca un mariaj sa se destrame, multe cupluri mergand la cateheza se reunesc si regasesc dragostea de odionioara.

Din pacate exista si adulter si de multe ori sotul e vinovat, iar acesta din urma nevrand sa vorbeasca cu preotul si cu sotia incapatanandu-se in viciul sau va duce la separare (chiar cunosc un caz unde o doamna doreste divortul dupa casatoria de srgint la biserica cu reinnoirea juramintelor, in fata Altarului acel barbat a spus da, un da fals fiind incurcat cu o femeie, aceste cazuri sunt cele mai grele deoarece barbatul nu are nici un sentiment de iubire/consideratie fata de sotie, iar fata de Dumnezeu pe care nu il vede nici atat)

Imi cer scuze pentru offtopic, intrebarea mea nu-si are locul la acest topic.

Nu stiu exact ce inseamna cateheza. Am cunoscut vara trecuta un cuplu (el catolic, ea ortodox). Urmau sa se casatoreasca si ea se convertea. Stiu ca mergeau cu regularitate la biserica, vorbeau cu preotul, apoi urmau un fel de cursuri (tinute de o femeie, nu de un preot), tot in cadrul bisericii.
Este vorba tot de cateheza?
Problema a aparut cand s-a ajuns la discutarea faptului ca sotul are drept deplin asupra sotie. Nu cunosc ce inseamna acest lucru, in conceptia catolica, insa cand viitoarea sotie a intrebat daca acest lucru implica orice, raspunsul a fost "da".
Nu a fost de acord cu explicatiile primite.
Nunta a avut insa loc, trecand el la ortodoxism.

Probabil femeia respectiva avea studii de psihologie si teologie didactica si de aceea consilia.
Acele cursuri sunt orele de cateheza. (catehizarea = orele de religie prmergatoare casatoriei, botezului, convertirii...)
Mai mult e ceva legat de biserica si religie(botezarea copiilor in Biserica Catolica) si nu ingradeste cu nimic femeia din punct de vedere social, nu e vorba ca femeia nu poate face nimic fara acordul sotului, nu e islamism.

Si nu implica orice, daca sotia nu doreste ceva nimeni nu o poate obliga.

Explicatiile trebuia sa le dea preotul nu o muiere care probabil habar nu are si e habotnica.

Foarte mare pacat pentru catolic pentru ca exista riscul sa se mai mantuiasca daca a abandonat Biserica Apostolica. Si este si pacatul preotului ca nu s-a ocupat cum a trebuit de ei. (in parohia unde sunt sunt cupluri unde el catolic ea ortodoxa si invers si merg la cateheza si sunt multumiti.).
Ea fiind ortodoxa putea ramane asa, insa el ar trebui sa mearga sa vorbeasca cu preotul catolic de une a apartinut si sa fi ramas catolic, oricum exista un semn de intrebare ca acel catolic sa se mai mantuiasca in Biseirica Sora.
As vrea sa-i intrebi daca la ortodocsi au facut cateheza (probabil ca nu deoarece permit divortul desi nu e valid, casatoria fiind pe viata) si mai ales daca au fost vrednici de Casatorie prin Spovada si Impartasanie.

Cand il aud pe Triregnum vorbind...regret uneori ca n-am ales cariera preoteasca...Mama, ce preot bun as mai fi fost...

nici acum nu e tarziu. Mergi la fratii anglicani si spui ca vrei sa fii popa, poate ai noroc si ajunge episcop. (New Hampshire)

Anglicanii-s depravati - io vreau sa fiu un popa model - ca tine. Sa se duca vestea ce predici bune tin dincolo de granitele parohiei.

Nu vrei sa ma faci si sfant?
Nu fac eu aici ore de cateheza sa ma laud ce bine le tin .
Pai fa-te popa, dar nu cred ca ai reusii sa te abtii pentru ca sunt ispite (chiar mama mea tot bombanea intr-o zi ce frumosi sunt cei de la noi la teologie, "pacat ca nu vor sa se casatoreasca" sau cand vedea Liturghia tinuta de Papa in San Pietro tot mereu spunea ca nu vede pe nici unul urat...era intrigata ca sunt toti frumosi la care eu pai Dumnezeu isi alege mereu cei mai frumosi oameni atat trupeste cat si sufleteste - totul e sa nu decada si sa ramana numai cu frumusetea trupeasca adaug eu acum avand in vedere cele discutate mai sus).

Sa stii c-am sa ma fac...mai stau pana pe la 35-40 ani sa mai pacatuiesc un pic cat sunt tanar, si pe la 40 intru in preotie. Poate da Domnu' si ajungem colegi de parohie. Sau tu pe vremea aia o sa fii deja cardinal...

M-am exprimat eu neclar. Cand m-am referit la dreptul sotului asupra sotiei trebuia sa precizez: dreptul sotului asupra trupului sotiei.

Asa a spus si persoana in cauza, ca era vorba de o habotnica. Oricum, raspunsurile primite au determinat-o sa renunte.

Aseara am vazut pe PAX Tv emisiunea maicii Siluana, la care a participat presedintele ACCEPT. Acesta isi sustinea orientarea cu argumente subiective, in fata incercarilor timide ale maicii Siluana de a trezi in el o farama de constiinta crestina. In final, aceasta a cedat, nefacand fata la debitul verbal al invitatului. Dupa terminarea emisiunii, prea scurta pentru multitudinea de argumente contra pe care i le-ar fi putut aduce maica Siluana invitatului, fiica mea a concluzionat : "Intrebarea era atat de simpla : De ce a mai facut Dumnezeu barbatul si femeia ?". Intr-adevar, era intrebarea cea mai simpla si revelatoare. Dar oare ce ar fi raspuns el ?

Sa nu cazi parinte in pacatul vanitatii

Sa fim seriosi, catolicii si ceilalti au rate de divort identice sau macar comparabile cu ceilalti, singura chestie e ca a doua oara vor "evita" sa mai se casatoreasca religios...
Cum nu mai suntem in epoca Inchizitiei si a lui Giordano Bruno (singurul care a reusit sa fie excomunicat si de catolici si de protestanti... ) vorbele tale sunt mai mult decat teoretice, practica este insa complect diferita...
Si cum jumatatea familiei mele e catolica, jumatate ortodoxa, cred ca stiu bine despre ce vorbesc...

Acest topic a fost editat de sorin666: 15 Sep 2004, 12:04 PM

Nu ca asi dori sa ii apar (lobbyul homo o face suficient de agresiv si eficace... ) dar, daca totul vine de la "patron" si acesta ar fi dorit sa nu existe homosexuali, nu le-ar fi "bagat" aceste idei in cap, deci, logic, totul este cel putin "tolerat" de el daca nu cu "aprobarea" lui...

Acest topic a fost editat de sorin666: 15 Sep 2004, 09:00 AM

o sa am grija.

Tear
Homosexualii care-si vor "drepturi" sunt asa de indoctrinati in pacatul lor incat pervertesc morala dorind ca imoralul sa devina moral ceea ce in mod normal nu se poate. Macia putea sa ii aduca argumente teologice(Scriptura si Sfanta Traditie), fiziologice si sociale, dar si cu acestea nu cred ca ar fi reusit mare lucru.

Da si nu... in primul rand ca militantii Homo nu prea reusesc sa influienteze mentalitatea generala (care a trecut foarte lent de la o ostilitate deschisa la o semi-tolerarnta amestecata de cele mei multe ori cu dezgust...) si in al doilea rand datorita faptului ca, contrar imaginarului colectiv, cei mai multi popotonisti sunt oameni banali, discreti, care cer mai mult dreptul la anonimat decat privilegii...

Totusi nu prea doresc anonimat, in Belgia si Olanda se plimba cu nerusinare tinandu-se de mana, ba chiar vor sa se poata casatori uzurpand casatoria normala traditionala. Sau au pretentii sa fie casatoriti la biserica, contrar canoanelor Bisericii si mai mult a Sf Scripuri si a Sfintilor Parinti. Nici nu vor reusi vreodata sa influenteze mentalitatea populatiei, nu pot imbolnavi o societate cladita solid pe crestinism, chiar daca acum se clatina cum s-a mai clatinat sunt sigur ca valorile crestine nu vor fi pervertite.
Crede-ma sorin6 ca cei mai multi homosexuali(sa nu spun toti) isi doresc ca sa fie cosniderati oameni normali (din punctul de vedere al sexualitatii) si sa-si poata desfasura viata in public (cu imbratisari, tineri de mana, saruturi ca restul nu e voie nici la cei normali).

"
21. Din copiii tai sa nu dai in slujba lui Moloh, ca sa nu pangaresti numele Dumnezeului tau. Eu sunt Domnul.
22. Sa nu te culci cu barbat, ca si cu femeie; aceasta este spurcaciune. 23. Cu nici un dobitoc sa nu te culci, ca sa-ti versi samanta si sa te spurci cu el; nici femeia sa nu stea la dobitoc, ca sa se spurce cu el; aceasta e uraciune.
24. Sa nu va intinati cu nimic din acestea, ca cu toate acestea s-au intinat paganii, pe care tu ii izgonesc dinaintea fetei voastre.
25. Ca s-a intinat pamantul si am privit la nelegiuirile lor si a lepadat pamantul pe cei ce traiau pe el.
26. Iar voi sa paziti toate poruncile Mele si toate legile Mele si sa nu faceti toate ticalosiile acestea, nici bastinasul, nici strainul care traieste intre toi.
27. Ca toate uraciunile acestea le-au facut oamenii pamantului acestuia care e inaintea voastra si s-a intinat pamantul;
28. Ca nu cumva sa va lepede si pe voi pamantul, cand il veti intina, cum a aruncat el de la sine pe popoarele care au fost inainte de voi.
29. Ca tot cel ce va face ticalosiile acestea, sufletul care va face acestea se va starpi din poporul sau.
30. Deci paziti poruncile Mele si sa nu umblati dupa obiceiurile urate, dupa care au umblat cei dinaintea voastra, nici sa va intinati cu ele. Eu sunt Domnul Dumnezeul vostru". "
Leviticul

Iara citate in paleo-romana popeasca...

Nu e limba paleo-romana popeasca, draga Sorin. In momentul traducerii Bibliei asta era standardul, folosit de toata lumea. Acuzatiile nu au intarziat sa apara, si din punctul meu de vedere limbajul ar trebui reactualizat. De altfel el exista, modern si flexibil, in Biblia catolica. Nu aici e problema, dar tu nu te-ai putut abtine si ai tras cu prastia din spatele gardului.

In problema homosexualitatii cred ca cea mai complet comentariu l-a facut Marky. El nu are nimic cu homosexualii, dar... bleah!!!

(OFF TOPIC) Daca se va retraduce, sper sa se faca din limba de origine, nu "adaptand" vechiul text, dupa 10 adaptari succesive risca sa semene mai curand cu "1001 de nopti" dacat cu ce vroia sa zica "autorul"...

- din principiu religia este o cale de "relegare" de Dumnezeu si ofera invataturi teoretice si practice pt. a atinge desavirsirea. Homosexualitatea este o practica care nu se integreaza pe caile si metodele ascendente dpdv spirituale ... mai ales homosexualitatea masculina. Cea feminina mai are un cit de cita "integrare" ... dar nu intru in detalii "tehnice". Per global, homosexualitatea nu este o "metoda" integrata pe caile spirituale, nici macar in cel care au si sexualitatea integrata in invatatura si practica spirituala.

- poate, caci nu numai el este cu "pacat", ci si altii .. insa fiecare cu pacatele (greselile) lor.

- daca accepta vreuna asa ceva ... este prea putin probabil sa fie o religie autentica. Repet, nici caile spirituale cu integrare erotica nu accepta homosexualitatea, mai ales cea masculina.

- de unde concluzia ca acele "culte" se afla in eroare

- crestin este cel ce se daruieste intr-un fel sau altul lui Iisus si practrica mai mult sau mai putin corect invatatura crestina, insa in special cel care e si botezat pe deasupra. Homosexualul este un om cu un "pacat" ... care, per global, poate avea mai putine vicii sau pacate decit un asa zis crestin hetero.

- cei ce au aceasta atitudine ca cea de mai sus le amintesc ca cei ce sint fara de pacat sa ridice primul piatra si sa arunce cu ea. Faptul ca homosexualii continua cu aceasta practica este pt. ca nu au o informare complexa asupra fenomenului si ca religiile nu le ofera cadrul si cunoasterea necesara eliminarii acestui "viciu". Deci nu este numai vina lor ca sint asa ... si si a neputintei religiilor, preotilor samd .. de a-i face constienti si mai ales de a le oferi o alternativa .. nu numai o "duzina de pedepse" si "chinuri vesnice".

- nu din acest motiv homosexualitate este in eroare, ci pt. alte motive ocult-initiatice. Nu ii retine nimeni pe acesti homosexuali sa aibe "intilniri de repproducerea speciei" ... si apoi sa-si contiune "viata".

- polarizarea barbat - femeie exprima in mic polarizare la nivel Macrocosmic si unirea celor doi un UNUL, precum unirea celor doua principii cosmice SHIVA - SHAKTI conduc la UNICUL, SUPREMUL. La nivelul aceasta este greseala homosexualilor ... datorita lipsei de polarizare si neputintei de a crea UNICUL prin unirea lor intima.

Faptul ca homosexualii continua cu aceasta practica este pt. ca nu au o informare complexa asupra fenomenului si ca religiile nu le ofera cadrul si cunoasterea necesara eliminarii acestui "viciu".
Asa e , ei sint complet inconstienti de ce fac.... daca cineva le-ar spune in fiecare zi ca e gresit ce fac, probabil in scurt timp ar disparea toti, si toata lumea ar trai fericita pina la adinci batrinete....Tiriac s-ar pupa cu federatia de tenis, seful cu subalternii, papa cu ateii.....
Iar chestia ca la fete mai merge treaba e cretina rau....adica ele nu sint chiar asa vinovate ca baietii....si-o pun si ele intre ele, da sa fim oameni.... ele e fete...si ce pretentii putem avea de la fete, nu?
Acu nici nu vreau sa ma gindesc cam cum ar suna o explicatie ocult esoterica la treaba asta...... da stau si ma intreb.... au facut ei, membrii misa , sa nu mai aibe loc un cutremur..... si au deviat un meteorit..... ce mare chestie sa-i aduca pe "calea cea buna" pe pacatosii astia inconstienti?
Sau poate nu vor?
Sau poate nu pot?
Raspunsul e... in episodul urmator al filmului " Ocultismul si priapismul"....sau "Cum sa avem orgasme cosmice fara sa spargem fereastra"....