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> Nu Exista Copii "prosti" Sau Copii "destepti"
jet li
mesaj 2 Sep 2009, 09:15 AM
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http://www.scribd.com/doc/16286882/An-Unde...rican-Education
QUOTE
Frankfurt, Illinois "I had a rich personal inquiry going on in many things.School was for me a tedious interruption of my otherwise interesting life."

Yelm, Washington "My passion is that my daughter be allowed to grow up being completely who she is. Right now she is a happy, enthusiastic, self-taught child of eight and a half. She taught herself to read at four, reads everything.School to me has always felt sick at the core of its concept."

Madison, Wisconsin "I’m desperate what to do. Three bright and lively children but everyday I see a closing down of enthusiasm as they grind their way through a predetermined school program."Reno, Nevada "My wife and I came to the end of the rope with public education four years ago. I was tired of seeing my once happy child constantly in tears."

Santa Barbara, California "I just took my eight-year-old daughter from school.Bit by bit she was becoming silent, even fearful. From her anxiety to reach the school bus on time to the times she was visibly shaken from criticism of her homework. Day by day she was changing for the worse. But the absolute end was the destructive effect the culture of school childrens values had on her behavior. Now she laughs again. I have my laughing girl back."

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania "School started to destroy my family by dividing us from one another instead of joining us. It created separatism among the kids,among the classes, among ages, among parents and children. After I took my second grader from school she began to blossom. She loves her time now, the time is the gift."

Huntersville, North Carolina "I defined myself as a child by my accomplishments at school just as I had been taught to. I was a National Merit Scholar and a Presidential Scholar but I couldn’t even make it through two years of college because my own authoritarian schooling had left me completely unprepared to make my own decisions."

St. Louis, Missouri "Mr. Gatto, you are describing my daughter when you name the pathological symptoms our children display as a result of their schooling. And you are describing me—which pains me almost unbearably to recognize and admit."

Haverhill, Massachusetts "I have no certificates of great accomplishment, no titles, no diploma except a high school one, no degree except when I have a fever. Yet I do have experience gained while raising three daughters. I’d like to paint a picture for you. I had to take my daughter out of kindergarten after five weeks. This happy, self-regulating child I was raising showed great signs of stress in that short of a time. I remembered the rebellion of my two angry teenagers, suddenly made the connection, and took her from school. And so the last girl I raised as a free child. There have been no signs of anger or rebellion since then. That was seventeen years ago


QUOTE
Solve this problem and school will heal itself: children know that schooling is not fair, not honest,not driven by integrity. They know they are devalued in classes and grades, that the institution is indifferent to them as individuals. The rhetoric of caring contradicts what school procedure and content say, that many children have no tolerable future and most have a sharply proscribed one.The problem is structural. School has been built to serve a society of associations: corporations,institutions, and agencies. Kids know this instinctively. How should they feel about it? How should we ?


QUOTE
As soon as you break free of the orbit of received wisdom you have little trouble figuring out why, in the nature of things, government schools and those private schools which imitate the government model have to make most children dumb, allowing only a few to escape the trap. The problem stems from the structure of our economy and social organization. When you start with such pyramid-shaped givens and then ask yourself what kind of schooling they would require to maintain themselves, any mystery dissipates—these things are inhuman conspiracies all right, but not conspiracies of people against people, although circumstances make them appear so. School is a conflict pitting the needs of social machinery against the needs of the human spirit. It is a war of mechanism against flesh and blood, self-maintaining social mechanisms that only require human architects to get launched.

I’ll bring this down to earth. Try to see that an intricately subordinated industrial/commercial system has only limited use for hundreds of millions of self-reliant, resourceful readers and critical thinkers. In an egalitarian, entrepreneurially based economy of confederated families like the one the Amish have or the Mondragon folk in the Basque region of Spain, any number of self-reliant people can be accommodated usefully, but not in a concentrated command-type economy like our own. Where on earth would they fit? In a great fanfare of moral fervor some years back, the Ford Motor Company opened the world’s most productive auto engine plant in Chihuahua, Mexico. It insisted on hiring employees with 50 percent more school training than the Mexican norm of six years, but as time passed Ford removed its requirements and began to hire school dropouts,training them quite well in four to twelve weeks. The hype that education is essential to robot-like work was quietly abandoned.



"Rezolva aceasta problema si scoala se va vindeca singura: copii stiu ca scoala nu este dreapta, cinstita, nu pune valoare pe integritate. Stiu ca sunt redusi prin ore si note, ca institutia e indiferenta fata de ei ca indivizi. Retorica "imi pasa" contrazice procedura si continutul scolii care spune ca multi copii au un viitor sumbru si cei mai multi au unul deja prescris. Problema e una structurala. Scoara a fost construita sa serveasca o societate de corporatii, institutii si agentii. Copii stiu asta instictiv. Cum ar trebui sa vada treaba asta ? Dar noi ?"

Nici nu stiu ce sa spun aici. Cititi daca sunteti interesati.
De ce nu e scoala "dreapta" ? Pentru ca le spune clar :"Va conformati la model sau muriti (sau aveti un viitor sumbru). Si chiar daca va conformati, oricum 80% din voi o sa fiti sclavii altora. Uitati toate prostiile cu cooperare, prietenie, altruism. Nu ajutati pe nimeni, maine va poate lua slujba."

Ce valori mai poate scoala sa ii invete pe copii ? Cum mai indrazneste sa spuna ca ii invata ceva ?
Ne bucuram ca toti copii sunt "educati" spre deosebire de evul mediu. De fapt toti copii sunt prostiti, facuti sa creada ca sunt prosti. Nu exista "prosti".

http://www.spinninglobe.net/condunces.htm
QUOTE
Mass dumbness is vital to modem society. The dumb person is wonderfully flexible clay for psychological shaping by market research, government policymakers; public-opinion leaders, and any other interest group. The more pre-thought thoughts a person has memorized, the easier it is to predict what choices he or she will make. What dumb people cannot do is think for themselves or ever be alone for very long without feeling crazy. That is the whole point of national forced schooling; we aren't supposed to be able to think for ourselves because independent thinking gets in the way of "professional" think-ing, which is believed to follow rules of scientific precision.

Modern scientific stupidity masquerades as intellectual knowledge - which it is not. Real knowledge has to be earned by hard and painful thinking; it can't be generated in group discussions or group therapies but only in lonely sessions with yourself. Real knowledge is earned only by ceaseless questioning of yourself and others, and by the labor of independent verification; you can't buy it from a government agent, a social worker, a psychologist, a licensed specialist, or a schoolteacher. There isn't a public school in this country set up to allow the discovery of real knowledge - not even the best ones - although here and there individual teachers, like guerrilla fighters, sabotage the system and work toward this ideal. But since schools are set up to classify people rather than to see them as unique, even the best schoolteachers are strictly limited in the amount of questioning they can tolerate.


QUOTE
The new dumbness is particularly deadly to middle and upper-middle-class people, who have already been made shallow by the multiple requirements to conform. Too many people, uneasily convinced that they must know something because of a degree, diploma, or license, remain so convinced until a brutal divorce, alienation from their children, loss of employment, or periodic fits of meaninglessness manage to tip the precarious mental balance of their incomplete humanity, their stillborn adult lives.
Listen to William Harris again, the dark genius of American schooling, the man who gave you scientifically age-graded classrooms:

The great purposes of school can be realized better in dark, airless, ugly places than in beautiful halls. It is to master the physical self, to transcend the beauty of nature. School should develop the power to withdraw from the external world.

Harris thought, a hundred years ago, that self-alienation was the key to a successful society. Filling the young mind with the thoughts of others and surrounding it with ugliness - that was the passport to self-alienation. Who can say that he was wrong?



Si ce e mai important. Unde se duc 12 ani din viata copiilor. La capatul carora oricum cei mai multi (rezistenti la indoctrinare - nu exista copii lenesi, doar copii plictisiti de moarte) sunt buni doar sa mature strada. Poate stiu sa citeasca si sa numere !

Vedeti aici, 13 luni :

I want to give you a yardstick, a gold standard, by which to measure good schooling.
The Shelter Institute in Bath, Maine will teach you how to build a three thousand square-foot, multi-level Cape Cod home in three weeks' time, whatever your age. If you stay another week, it will show you how to make your own posts and beams; you'll actually cut them out and set them up. You'll learn wiring, plumbing, insulation, the works. Twenty thousand people have learned how to build a house there for about the cost of one month's tuition in public school. (Call Patsy Hennon at 207/442-7938, and she'll get you started on building your own home.) For just about the same money you can walk down the street in Bath to the Apprentice Shop at the Maine Maritime Museum [now in Rockport - ed.] and sign on for a one-year course (no vacations, forty hours a week) in traditional wooden boat building. The whole tuition is eight hundred dollars, but there's a catch: they won't accept you as a student until you volunteer for two weeks, so they can get to know you and you can judge what it is you're getting into. Now you've invested thirteen months and fifteen hundred dollars and you have a house and a boat. What else would you like to know? How to grow food, make clothes, repair a car, build furni-ture, sing?


Mai era o poveste cu niste copii de 11-12 ani, care in vreo 3 luni de invatatura special pentru un anumit lucru- fara alte materii, deja invatasera toata matematica de liceu. Fara 40 de minute romana, 40 de minute sport, 40 de minute cealalta, si obtii o varza in 12 ani. Obtii nimic. Modelarea copilului sa asculte - pentru viata de sclav, sclavi de care are nevoie societatea + sa scrie si sa citeasca.

Desigur si plictisirea lui de moarte. Vedeti primele citate de la inceputul postului. Daca odata ii placea sa citeasca, poti fi sigur ca a pierdut imediat gustul cand a fost fortat sa citeasca ce nu il interesa. Eu stiu ca asa eram : citeam o gramada, uram insa "limba romana" si orice prostie de "citire" ne era data la scoala. Ca rezultat aveam note mici. Sistemul m-a judecat. Sunt inutil. Bun sa matur strada poate.

Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 2 Sep 2009, 10:20 AM


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Theodoric
mesaj 2 Sep 2009, 11:28 AM
Mesaj #2


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Asa, si?
Eu cred ca majoritatea oamenilor nu-s in stare sa gandeasca pentru ei deci au nevoie de un sistem care le pune ordine in viata. Cei mai multi trebuie sa mearga la scoala cat spune statul, apoi sa-si gaseasca un servici pentru a face ceva util si la urma ies la pensie si mor.
Exista o minoritate care intr-un fel sau altul e in stare sa iasa din rat race. Prin pur noroc sau forte proprii acestia isi fac viata cum vor in loc de a astepta sa le-o faca altii cum vor.

Cat despre "copii prosti" vs. "copii destepti", prima tabara e mult mai numeroasa. Contrar opiniei la moda a unora, unii copii chiar sunt prosti si n-ai ce le face. E adevarat ca sistemul de invatamant ii indobitoceste pe unii iar pe altii ii face sa para mai destepti decat sunt dar asta nu schimba forma curbei coeficentului de inteligenta.

Acest topic a fost editat de Theodoric: 2 Sep 2009, 11:29 AM


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jet li
mesaj 2 Sep 2009, 12:04 PM
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Citeste linkurile de mai sus. Normal ca nu sunt in stare sa gandeasca pentru ei daca in copilarie nu eu fost lasati sa exerseze. Eu am avut sansa sa mai traiesc si pe la tara fara reguli si autoritate, mi-am exersat gandirea si responsabilitatea pentru actiunile proprii. Cine a avut sansa acestui exercitiu, nu neaparat la tara - poate gandi pentru sine insusi. Mai ramane doar sa isi impuna sa treaca prin plictiseala scolii - si sa aiba succes la testele "lor". Ale indoctrinatilor.

Li s-a spus : "fa cum zicem noi, repeta asta, invata cealalta, stai in banca, nu e nevoie sa gandesti ! de fapt nu ai voie ! Esti prea prost, cine stie ce faci ! Nu iti incredintam nici macar libertatea proprie de miscare. Si tot ce faci tu e prost facut, esti prost, cata vreme nu ai note mari". Si astfel copilul isi pierde increderea in sine. In loc sa castige mai multa cu trecerea timpului.

Ajung la 18 ani "gataa, acum ia ganditi voi singuri ! A nu puteti ? Pai daca sunteti prosti !!! La Mc Donalds cu voi ! Ce ne-am face daca ati fi toti oameni care sunt in stare sa gandeasca, nu am mai avea vanzatori la Mc Donalds !"

De fapt citeste linkurile de mai sus si cauta despre John Taylor Gatto. Nu, nu exista copii "prosti". Doar plicitisiti. Cei care se adapteaza cel mai bine in scoala - sunt tocmai cei care nu au avut sansa sa fie liberi si de capul lor pentru o perioada ceva mai lunga. Adica sa gandeasca singuri. Daca o fac - devin plictisiti de scoala si pica la testele lor. Sunt prea tineri sa isi impuna de la sine distrugerea proprie, pierderea copilariei in niste banci , pentru cine stie ce scop ulterior.

Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 2 Sep 2009, 12:14 PM


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Promo Contextual
mesaj 2 Sep 2009, 12:04 PM
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ContextuALL









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Theodoric
mesaj 2 Sep 2009, 12:28 PM
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Cat timp unii aleg sa devina vanzatori la Mac, altii soferi de tir, altii chirurgi si altii astronomi, care e problema? Urmand aceeasi scoala unii au tintit mai sus si altii mai jos, dupa posibilitatile intelectuale si financiare.


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jet li
mesaj 2 Sep 2009, 12:29 PM
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Aleg ?
Vezi mai sus, in 3 luni firma aia te invata sa construiesti o casa. 3 luni. Ce fac copii 12 ani ? Ce stiu dupa aia ? Chiar si aia de 10 ?
Ai auzit de ala de a inconjurat lumea la 16 ani, pe o barca cu vele ? Crezi ca e unic ? Da fiecarui copil o barca cu vele - de cand e mic. Sa se dea cu ea pe lac la inceput. La 16 ani toti o sa inconjoare lumea.

Nimic. Sunt plictisiti total. Nu li se da mana libera cu nimic. Nu li se incredinteaza nimic. Numai astfel isi formeaza increderea in sine. Copiilor le place sa imite adultii. Dar nu sunt lasati. Sunt bagati in scoala unde sunt masurati dupa niste lucruri inutile si plictisitoare. Normal ca dupa aia "aleg" sa ia note proaste.

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"To most of the roles society offers, I say, "You are made for more than that." We inhabit, in the words of Ivan Illich, "a world into which nobody fits who has not been crushed and molded by sixteen years of formal education." The very idea of having to be at a job "on time" was appalling to early industrial laborers, who also refused the numbing repetitiveness of industrial work until the specter of starvation compelled them. What truly self-respecting person would spend a life marketing soda pop or chewing gum unless they were somehow broken by repeated threats to survival? "

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"Not only does school prepare us to submit to the trivialized, demeaning, dull, and unfulfilling jobs that dominate our economy to the present time, not only does it prepare us to be modern producers, it equally prepares us to be modern consumers. Consider Gatto's description:

Schools train individuals to respond as a mass. Boys and girls are drilled in being bored, frightened, envious, emotionally needy, generally incomplete. A successful mass production economy requires such a clientele. A small business, small farm economy like that of the Amish requires individual competence, thoughtfulness, compassion, and universal participation; our own requires a managed mass of leveled, spiritless, anxious, familyless, friendless, godless, and obedient people who believe the difference between "Cheers" and "Seinfeld" is worth arguing about."


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"They know that there is a way the world is supposed to be, and a magnificent role for themselves in that more beautiful world. Broken to the lesser lives we offer them, they react with hostility, rage, cynicism, depression, escapism, or self-destruction—all the defining qualities of modern adolescence. Then we blame them for not bringing these qualities under control, and when they finally have given up their idealism we call them mature. Having given up their idealism, they can get on with the business of survival: practicality and security, comfort and safety, which is what we are left with in the absence of purpose. So we suggest they major in something practical, stay out of trouble, don't take risks, build a résumé. We think we are practical and wise in the ways of the world. Really we are just broken and afraid. We are afraid on their behalf, and, less nobly, we are afraid of what their idealism shows us: the plunder and betrayal of our own youthful possibilities."

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter6-4.php

Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 2 Sep 2009, 12:35 PM


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Johann_Moritz
mesaj 2 Sep 2009, 01:05 PM
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Scoala nu ii face pe oameni mai prosti. Eventual nu le permite sa isi atiga potentialul maxim, nu ii face mai destepti sau mai apti pentru viata in societate, dar nu ii face mai prosti decat ar fi in lipsa ei.
Si te contrazic in legatura cu titlul topicului: exista copii prosti si copii destepti. Din nascare. Prostia e in mare masura genetica.

Acest topic a fost editat de kumarbi: 2 Sep 2009, 01:06 PM


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Usted tragó todo, como distancia. Como el mar, como tiempo. ¡En
usted todo se hundió!


^^^so not true!
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jet li
mesaj 2 Sep 2009, 01:21 PM
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Ii face mai prosti prin simplul fapt ca le fura timpul. Cel mai important timp - cand descopera lumea, pe cont propriu. Si pe sine insusi.

Nu exista atatia copii "prosti" pentru cele 80% din slujbe care le sunt dedicate lor "prostilor". Slujbe pe care oricine le invata dupa un antrenament de 1 luna, nu e nevoie de 12 ani. In 12 ani un copil cu timp liber si posibilitatea de a invata ce il intereseaza, ce ii place, fara program, fara plictiseala (pentru ca lucreaza la ce ii place) - crezi ca ajunge vanzator la Mc ?

Dar vai - cine ar mai fi vanzator la Mac atunci ? Nimeni. Decat cei fortati sa fie pentru a supravietui. Vezi citatul de mai sus. Asta e urmatoarea problema, sistemul actual are nevoie de oameni care sa faca slujbe nedorite de nimeni. Sunt obtinuti prin marea pacaleala numita scoala, si chiar indoctrinati si ei ca "merita" situatia in care sunt. Ca sunt "prosti".



Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 2 Sep 2009, 01:55 PM


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Theodoric
mesaj 2 Sep 2009, 02:05 PM
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Tu ai trai intr-o casa facuta de un "meserias" cu un an experienta? Ai conduce o masina reparata de acelasi meserias care s-a decis sa abandoneze tamplaria in favoarea unui curs de 6 luni de mecanic? smile.gif

Eu am impresia ca teoriile si cautarea perfectiunii se bucura de mare apreciere pe acest forum.

Nu sustin ca scoala nu are si o mare parte negativa. Dar nu cunosc personal nici un individ care a abandonat scoala dupa 8 clase in ideea de a se dezvolta natural si de care mai apoi sa se fi ales ceva.

Cat timp oamenii descopereau lumea (si pe ei insisi) pe cont propriu, speranta de viata era undeva la 40 de ani. Nu duc dorul miilor de ani parcursi de omenire pana cand invatamantul a devenit obligatoriu si a contribuit, printre altele, la dublarea acelei sperante.

Acest topic a fost editat de Theodoric: 2 Sep 2009, 02:06 PM


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jet li
mesaj 2 Sep 2009, 03:19 PM
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http://www.primitivism.com/machine-heads.htm
QUOTE
When confronted with the awesome power of civilization whose first representatives are parents, teachers, priests (and, later on, police officers, legislators and bosses) the child faces, psychologically, the same situation as its tribal ancestors, namely, conform to the dictates of civilization or die. The helplessness of childhood makes the threat of bodily harm or loss of love, which is used by the parents and others to enforce civilized morality and civilized education, a traumatic experience. The developing little person becomes afraid to express its own tribal nature. There is much fear that lies at the bottom of becoming a civilized adult.

When the child becomes aware of ideas and impulses that oppose the dictates of civilization, s/he experiences anxiety, which is the signal for danger. It is not the insights and urges themselves that the child fears, but rather the reaction to them on the part of those in charge. Since the child cannot escape from those who control its life, s/he runs away from dangerous thoughts and feelings. In other words, the child institutes repression of its primitive self. Tribal ideas are now isolated, cut off from awareness, and unable to properly influence the future course of events.
The trauma or inescapable terror of civilization is responsible for the derangement of reason

QUOTE
We have internalized our masters, which is a well-known psychological response to trauma. When faced with overwhelming terror, the human mind splits, with part of itself modeling itself after the oppressor. This is an act of appeasement: "Look," the mind says in effect, "I am like you, so do not harm me." As a result of the civilizing process, together with this psychological defense mechanism known as "identification with the aggressor", we now hear the alien voices of the various representatives of civilization in our heads. Because of these alien ego-identifications we no longer hear our own tribal/primal voice. In order for deep thinking to commence again in the human mind, it is necessary to break down these internal authorities, overcome the resistances, that prevent tribal ideas from coming to consciousness. The modern problem is not simply that we do not listen to primal ideas, but rather that primal ideas are unable to come to consciousness at all, because of the internal counterforces, or ego-alien identifications, that contradict and overpower them.

These ego-alien identifications, built up over the course of a lifetime, cohere and form a distinct, circumscribed personality, or false self, that represents and enforces the rules and regulations of civilization. This false self is observable in the frozen facial expressions, stereotypic gestures, and unexamined behavioral patterns of the general public. This false self determines much of our everyday lives, so that we are seldom the origin of our actions.


Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 2 Sep 2009, 03:20 PM


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jet li
mesaj 2 Sep 2009, 10:59 PM
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Nimeni nu a abandonat scoala - pentru ca nu exista alta cale - de supravietuire. Daca ar exista :
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2009/08/prisoner-exchange.html
QUOTE
No Arguments, no Intreaties, nor Tears of their Friends and Relations, could persuade many of them to leave their new Indian Friends and Acquaintance; several of them that were by the Caressings of their Relations persuaded to come Home, in a little Time grew tired of our Manner of living, and run away again to the Indians, and ended their Days with them. On the other Hand, Indian Children have been carefully educated among the English, cloathed and taught, yet, I think, there is not one Instance, that any of these, after they had Liberty to go among their own People, and were come to Age, would remain with the English, but returned to their own Nations, and became as fond of the Indian Manner of Life as those that knew nothing of a civilized Manner of Living. And, he concludes, what he says of this particular prisoner exchange “has been found true on many other Occasions.”


Daca viata indienilor era asa de rea si grea si etc si mureau toti la 40 de ani, cum explici citatul de mai sus ?
Recomand toate linkurile din lateral de aici :
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
alea din dreapta, nu mai raspund la nimic pe tema asta, daca esti interesat vezi acolo.


Vazut acum film "Into the West". E un fel de documentar, m-am uitat pe sarite. Sioux au invins la Little Big Horn. Dar modul lor de viata a fost distrus. Bizonii au fost exterminati. Urmeaza viata lor in rezervatii. O sa vedeti cum erau copii tinuti in clasa, si imediat cum unul care ca orice fiinta libera de pe pamantul asta, a iesit pe afara, sa vada lumea pentru el insusi. apar imediat oamenii masina si il baga la loc. Asa cum facea de cand se stia, si cum au facut oamenii dintotdeauna. Experimentul asta care modeleaza mintile oamenilor, ii face ascultatori, plictisiti, le distruge spiritul, le pune o masca pe fata, sa se prefaca toata viata lor - ca sa supravietuiasca in lumea moderna macar daca nu din convingere, e ceva nou.

La fel a fost peste tot. Vazut un documentar alta data despre Tara de Foc : aceasi idee - copii nativilor bagati in scoala, tinuti in banci, batuti daca vorbeau limba proprie. La fel a fost si pentru eschimosii din Canada - citit o carte si despre ei.
Am asa de multe de spus incat nu stiu de unde sa incep. Incerc sa o iau mai usor cu ce scriu aici : sa nu par "sarit" desi sunt.

Dar oamenii vor vedea doar cand sunt pregatiti sa vada. Poti sa le spui orice, sa le arati poze sa-i fortezi sa se citeasca. Nu vor intelege pana cand nu sunt pregatiti sa inteleaga. Cand mai cresc. Si cresterea asta nu vine decat din experienta proprie - care le este negata dupa cum am aratat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe6gWsklnh0

Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 3 Sep 2009, 09:45 AM


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jet li
mesaj 3 Sep 2009, 12:41 PM
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Cati de aici sunteti impotriva religiei formale ? De ce nu ati fi si impotrva educatiei formale ? Adica aia cu program fix si inchiderea copiilor intr-o clasa unde nu au voie nici sa se miste din loc (invatand astfel supunerea, numai in felul asta vor accepta fara macar sa intrebe - viata programata - munca, somn, distractie, repetare, a muncitorului consumator) (si nu numai pentru unul, pentru toti). Oamenii liberi nu se "distreaza" si nu "muncesc" ei doar traiesc.

Cum invata supunerea ? Pai de frica. Frica de profesor, frica de parinti - care oricum l-ar trimite inapoi la scoala si daca reuseste sa fuga de profesor. Orice educatie bazata pe frica - nu e educatie. Cum faci sa "cresti" copilul atunci ? Pai creste singur, lasa-l liber, si natura lui de fiinta sociala il va face sa fie curios, sa intrebe, sa te imite. Dar sa fie liber - altfel nu "creste".

Oamenii moderni educati - sunt ca niste copaci altoiti. Taiati si indoctrinati. "Dar ce fructe frumoase dau". Intr-adevar fructele astea pot fi vandute pe bani...

Vedeti al doilea post de mai sus . Cate din actiunile de zi cu zi vin de la "stapanii interni" - si cate din proprie dorinta, gandire.
Nu sunt impotriva cunoasterii. Inveti copilul sa citeasca si sa numere. Apoi il lasi sa faca ce vrea. Sa citeasca sau sa se intereseze despre ce ii place.

Am scris despre astea aici, imi dau copy paste :
QUOTE
Making children sit in a chair - under threat is evil. "Discipline" ? What is that ? Tribal children - never beaten, educate, forced to do something, how come they don't all become lazy or "antisocial" ? Because their nature is not "lazy" or "antisocial" and they do not need "discipline". They need freedom to develop, to test the world around by themselves.

See the book :"The Continuum Concept". The author describes some tribe in Venezuela - a child age 11 was free to decide for himself where to go, to stay with her and the crew or whatever. Even if that meant going some 3 days alone with them, nobody forced his will on him. His destiny was his own. That's how you build self trust - by having the freedom to do things on your own. As a child. That's how I know I gained self trust. Later as an "educated", molded, broken , brainwashed adult is much harder. You need psychotherapy and stuff.



How school should be : you have the teacher (who knows something from everything, only at college level you have separate teachers). Children go to school and sit where they like. Nobody says anything if they go outside and play. (A playground somewhere in nature would be best).

But children are curious. So at first the teacher will tell them stories, even teaching them history and stuff about our world - but in the form of a story. Then he can show them other stuff, to read, to calculate, and let them freely experiment with it. They stay at school as long as they like. And I am sure they would want to stay there They will make friends there, they can play or do interesting stuff. Free. (By free I mean free to come and go as they chose) Soon the TV or computer games will be boring. All their friends will be at "school" playing - learning new stuff, I am sure the social and curious nature of children will make them want to be there.

Then the teacher starts telling them about everything : math, biology, chemistry and so on. Gives them books to read. Let's them chose what they like.
No grades, no tests, no schedule. Children can compete among themselves - only if they want to.

How long does school last ? As long as a child wants to. Then there will be "college" , after a child has chosen (if he has chosen) something he likes, and after he read some books about it, he goes to the university he wants. Here things are much more specialized - but he has the same freedom. Yes - simple freedom to sit anywhere, go anywhere, and come and go as he pleases.


In the end this "education" will produce anything but the worker consumer of today.


De fapt sunt impotriva cunoasterii "stiintifice". Care spune "ce nu vedem nu exista". Indienii aia fara scoli si religie formala erau mai avansati in cunoasterea Universului decat cercetatorii nostri cu masca pe fata. Fiecare lucru avea un spirit, dar toate erau manifestarile aceluiasi "Wakan Tanka" (Mare Spirit). Totul e acelasi lucru sub diferite forme.


Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 3 Sep 2009, 01:10 PM


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LINICA
mesaj 3 Sep 2009, 03:50 PM
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Nu am avut timo sa citesc tot, dar mi-a atras atentia acest fragment:

QUOTE
Cati de aici sunteti impotriva religiei formale ? De ce nu ati fi si impotrva educatiei formale ? Adica aia cu program fix si inchiderea copiilor intr-o clasa unde nu au voie nici sa se miste din loc (invatand astfel supunerea, numai in felul asta vor accepta fara macar sa intrebe - viata programata - munca, somn, distractie, repetare, a muncitorului consumator) (si nu numai pentru unul, pentru toti). Oamenii liberi nu se "distreaza" si nu "muncesc" ei doar traiesc.


Cred ca este nevoie de educatia formala(organizata), chiar si in formele de educatie nonformala- (ateliere, cercetare, dezvoltare personala, proiecte de grup).
De ce cred asta?
Pentru ca am experienta in educatia non-formala(chiar daca e vorba doar de un grup de 50-100 persoane); voi reveni cu exemple concrete cand voi avea un piculet de timp.

Acolo unde toata lumea face ce vrea, fara o coordonare, nu exista evolutie, continuitate in rezultate. Insa e obligatoriu ca trebuie sa raspunzi unor nevoi, identificate impreuna cu toti membrii, astfel incat sa poti coordona un grup de oameni cu talente diferite.

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jet li
mesaj 3 Sep 2009, 07:33 PM
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Intr-un trib toata lumea facea ce vroia. Si erau fericiti. Cum de ramaneau impreuna, daca fiecare facea ce voia ? Fara profesori, politie sa-i invete, sa nu se omoare unii pe altii ! Ce ciudat !

Cu siguranta avem nevoie de profesori si politie sa ne invete lucrurile astea ! De fapt e un mister cum au trait oamenii milioane de ani fara ei. Nu se potriveste deloc cu ce ne invata masina : "oamenii sunt rai prin natura lor !", "fara educatie devin toti "Hannibal Lecter !"

Da, fara o educatie formala, fara oameni invatati sa se supuna : nu mai ai toate "binefacerile" societatii "noastre". Nu mai are cine sa iti vanda la Mc Donalds. L-ai vedea pe Crazy Horse lucrand intr-un supermarket ? Intr-adevar nu ai mai avea toate astea, dar nu ar mai exista nici sclavii care le mentin : si atunci ar exista cu adevarat un "noi". Acum nu aveti decat sa va bucurati de lucrurile pe care oamenii le fac sa supravietuiasca - si le urasc in fiecare zi.

Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 3 Sep 2009, 07:34 PM


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(Afrodita)
mesaj 3 Sep 2009, 07:39 PM
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Mah, unde-i tribul ala sa ma duc si io acolo sa incerc pe pielea mea cum ii sa duci o viata in care faci numai ce vrei? biggrin.gif Serios ca m-as duce!
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turbo trabant
mesaj 3 Sep 2009, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE(jet li @ 3 Sep 2009, 07:33 PM) *
Fara profesori, politie sa-i invete, sa nu se omoare unii pe altii ! Ce ciudat !

asa zice si magraoancele mele , shafu'! fara caralii si mai ales fara profesori ca e naspa rau !

iote si dedic la bastanaria matale o dedicatie: cine hare nevoie de alfabete cand are clapele?

http://fulgerica.com/2009/08/05/ui-dont-ni...san/#more-11227

hai noroc, noi sa fim sanatosi!


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Romanii, ca popor, sunt prosti. Nu va chinuiti sa raspundeti, considerati posturile drept opera unui dusman al poporului.

Ba, ia faceti liniste si ordine, ce dreacu!
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Damnatius
mesaj 3 Sep 2009, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE
Intr-un trib toata lumea facea ce vroia. Si erau fericiti. Cum de ramaneau impreuna, daca fiecare facea ce voia ? Fara profesori, politie sa-i invete, sa nu se omoare unii pe altii ! Ce ciudat !


Nu stiu despre ce triburi vorbesti tu. Triburile de care am auzit eu pana acum (indieni nord- si sud-americani) se razboiau constant unele cu altele cu mult inaintea venirii europenilor pe pamanturile lor. De altfel, daca studiezi un pic de istorie, unele triburi au fost prietenoase cu omul alb tocmai fiinca acesta ii ajuta in masacrarea triburilor rivale.

Cat despre copiii care descopera singuri lumea, poti sa faci singur un experiment: compara aptitudinile unor copii analfabeti si fara scoala cu cele ale unor copii cu scoala.

Iar povestea cu construitul caselor e foarte frumoasa, doar ca neadevarata (cel putin asa cum o prezinti tu). In nici un caz nu ai o casa a ta investind numai 500 de dolari. Doar costul materialele de constructie se ridica la mult mai mult de atat. Plus ca trebuie sa ai si un teren pe care sa construiesti. Costul reprezinta doar cursul; casa construita nu devine a ta. Pe langa tuition, iti mai trebuie si cateva unelte de loc ieftine.

Edit: Ai intrat pe situl cu casele? Arunca o privire pe la Testimonials si numara cati oameni fara scoala sunt pe acolo.
Edit 2: Era sa uit. Prin Pakistan sunt si acum teritorii tribale in care statul are foarte putina influenta. Sa vezi ce fericire e pe-acolo...

Acest topic a fost editat de Damnatius: 3 Sep 2009, 08:17 PM
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turbo trabant
mesaj 3 Sep 2009, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE(Damnatius @ 3 Sep 2009, 08:05 PM) *
Plus ca trebuie sa ai si un teren pe care sa construiesti.

nu trebuie sa ai ca totul e la comun in tribul-model. trantesti coliba/cortul unde iti vine.


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Romanii, ca popor, sunt prosti. Nu va chinuiti sa raspundeti, considerati posturile drept opera unui dusman al poporului.

Ba, ia faceti liniste si ordine, ce dreacu!
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jet li
mesaj 3 Sep 2009, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE
Happiness
Almost universally, anthropologists remark on how ridiculously happy hunter gatherers seem to be. Laughter is far more common in their societies.

Of the !Kung: "Bursts of laughter accompany the conversations. Sometimes the !Kung laugh mildly with what we would call a sense of humor about people and events; often they shriek and howl as though laughter were an outlet for tension. They laugh at mishaps that happen to other people, like the lions eating up someone else's meat, and shriek over particularly telling and insulting sexual sallies...(15)".

Laurens van der Post expressed wonder at the exuberant San laugh, which rises "sheer from the stomach, a laugh you never hear among civilized people. (17)."

There's little wonder why. With no stressful work and plenty of time to socialize with friends and family, or engage in other pursuits they enjoy, what's not to be happy about?


Mai cititi si voi. Mai amintiti-va cum era viata cand erati copii daca ati fost la pescuit - cu prietenii si daca cumva vedeati treaba aia ca pe o munca. Asta am facut asta folosesc pentru a intelege. Fara program, fara sefi, fara probleme daca ai clienti, fara nimic. Impreuna cu prietenii. Aia nu e munca.
Oamenii liberi nu muncesc nici nu au vacanta, doar traiesc. Vedeti toate linkurile din dreapta de aici :
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/

Nu sunteti interesati nu cititi, e acolo cam tot. Nu e chiar tot dar e destul.

Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 3 Sep 2009, 08:20 PM


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Damnatius
mesaj 3 Sep 2009, 08:21 PM
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Nu te superi ca te intreb, dar cate persoane ati hranit voi cu pestii prinsi, si timp de cate zile? Te asigur ca cei care traiesc din pescuit vad pescuitul ca o munca.
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jet li
mesaj 3 Sep 2009, 08:40 PM
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Te asigur ca indienii se pricepeau mai bine ca mine, apoi ti-am zis sa citesti. Albi care erau luati prizonieri de indieni apoi nu mai doreau sa plece. Nu "munceau" la vanat si pescuit mai mult de 20 de ore pe saptamana - si dupa cum am spus nu era munca ci distractie. Nu imi spune despre pescarii moderni. Vorbesc de vanatorii culegatori.

Vezi tot topicul "O lectie de la bosimani" unde am mai scris despre astea.
Vorbesc cu niste oameni care imi spun povesti din imaginatia lor, nu se informeaza , de ce mai scrieti aici ?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11560712/Howard-...tes-1492Present
QUOTE
If you were a colonist, you knew that your technology was superior to the Indians'. You knew that you were civilized, and they were savages... . But your superior technology had proved insufficient to extract anything. The Indians, keeping to themselves, laughed at your superior methods and lived from the land more abundantly and with less labor than you did... . And when your own people started deserting in order to live with them, it was too much. ... So you killed the Indians, tortured them, burned their villages, burned their cornfields. It proved your superiority, in spite of your failures. And you gave similar treatment to any of your own people who succumbed to their savage ways of life. But you still did not grow much Black slaves were the answer.


http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter1-5.php
QUOTE
The main problem with this view is that life in the Stone Age was not necessarily "nasty, brutish, and short" at all. Ethnographic studies of isolated Stone Age hunter-gatherers and pre-modern agriculturalists suggest that "primitive" peoples, far from being driven by anxiety, lived lives of relative leisure and affluence. An oft-cited example is the !Kung of the Kalihari Desert in southern Africa, who were studied by the anthropologist Richard Lee.ii He followed them around for four weeks, kept a log of all their activities, and calculated an average workweek of approximately twenty hours spent in subsistence activities. This figure was confirmed by subsequent studies by Lee and other researchers in the same region. In one of the harshest climates in the world, the !Kung enjoyed a leisurely life with high nutritional intake. This compares to the modern standard of forty hours of work per week. If we add in commuting time, shopping, housework, cooking and so forth, the typical American spends about eighty hours per week aside from leisure time, eating, and sleep. The comparable figure for the !Kung is forty hours including such necessary activities as making tools and clothes.

Other studies worldwide, as well as common sense, suggest that the !Kung were not exceptional. In more lush areas life was probably even easier. Moreover, much of the "work" spent on these twenty hours of subsistence activities was by no means strenuous or burdensome. Most of the men's subsistence hours were spent hunting, something we do for recreation today, while gathering work was occasion for banter and frequent breaks.

Primitive small-scale agriculturalists enjoyed a similar unhurried pace of life. Consider Helena Norberg-Hodge's description of pre-modern Ladakh, a region in the Indian portion of the Tibetan Plateau.iii Despite a growing season only four months long, Ladakh enjoyed regular food surpluses, long and frequent festivals and celebrations, and ample leisure time (especially in winter when there was little field work to do). This, despite the harsh climate and the (proportionately) enormous population of non-working Buddhist monks in that country's numerous monasteries! More powerfully than any statistic, Norberg-Hodge's video documentary Ancient Futures conveys a sense of the leisurely pace of life there: villagers chat or sing as they work, taking plenty of long breaks even at the busiest time of the year. As the narrator says, "work and leisure are one.


QUOTE
"Observing a prisoner exchange between the Iroquois and the French in upper New York in 1699, Cadwallader Colden is blunt: “ notwithstanding the French Commissioners took all the Pains possible to carry Home the French, that were Prisoners with the Five Nations, and they had full Liberty from the Indians, few of them could be persuaded to return. “Nor, he has to admit, is this merely a reflection on the quality of French colonial life, “for the English had as much Difficulty” in persuading their redeemed to come home, despite what Colden would claim were the obvious superiority of English ways:

No Arguments, no Intreaties, nor Tears of their Friends and Relations, could persuade many of them to leave their new Indian Friends and Acquaintance; several of them that were by the Caressings of their Relations persuaded to come Home, in a little Time grew tired of our Manner of living, and run away again to the Indians, and ended their Days with them. On the other Hand, Indian Children have been carefully educated among the English, cloathed and taught, yet, I think, there is not one Instance, that any of these, after they had Liberty to go among their own People, and were come to Age, would remain with the English, but returned to their own Nations, and became as fond of the Indian Manner of Life as those that knew nothing of a civilized Manner of Living. And, he concludes, what he says of this particular prisoner exchange “has been found true on many other Occasions.”

Benjamin Franklin was even more pointed: When an Indian child is raised in white civilization, he remarks, the civilizing somehow does not stick, and at the first opportunity he will go back to his red relations, from whence there is no hope whatever of redeeming him. But when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and have lived a while among them, tho’ ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness toprevail with them to stay among the English, yet in a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the firstgood Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them.

There was always the great woods, and the life to be lived within it was, Crevecoeur admits, “singularly captivating,” perhaps even superior to that so boasted of by the transplanted Europeans. For, as many knew to their rueful amazement, “thousands of Europeans are Indians, and we have no examples of even one of those aborigines having from choice become Europeans!”


http://www.harpers.org/archive/2004/02/0079915
QUOTE
Agriculture is a recent human experiment. For most of human history, we lived by gathering or killing a broad variety of nature's offerings. Why humans might have traded this approach for the complexities of agriculture is an interesting and long-debated question, especially because the skeletal evidence clearly indicates that early farmers were more poorly nourished, more disease-ridden and deformed, than their hunter-gatherer contemporaries. Farming did not improve most lives. The evidence that best points to the answer, I think, lies in the difference between early agricultural villages and their pre-agricultural counterparts—the presence not just of grain but of granaries and, more tellingly, of just a few houses significantly larger and more ornate than all the others attached to those granaries.


Stii de ce nu avem noi mai mult timp liber ca ei ? Pentru ca suntem sclavii sistemului : si totul incepe din scoala .
QUOTE
In a 1927 interview with the magazine Nation’s Business, Secretary of Labor James J. Davis provided some numbers to illustrate a problem that the New York Times called “need saturation.” Davis noted that “the textile mills of this country can produce all the cloth needed in six months’ operation each year” and that 14 percent of the American shoe factories could produce a year’s supply of footwear.

http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/art...s/article/2962/

Ce sa fac, mai dau cateva linkuri poate poate le citeste cineva, apoi sa vorbim. Dar am scris aici - stiu ca nimeni nu vede pana cand nu ii vine timpul sa vada. Si eu am dat peste lucruri asemanatoare, abia peste cativa ani cand le gaseam din nou ziceam "ia uite ce era aici, acum inteleg".

Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 3 Sep 2009, 08:49 PM


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Damnatius
mesaj 3 Sep 2009, 10:22 PM
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Repeti aceleasi linkuri si aceleasi povesti. Daca indienii stiau mai bine decat tine inseamna ca nu e chiar asa simplu incat oricine poate sa se descurce. Inseamna ca necesita efort. Inseamna ca nu e chiar o veselie si-o distractie cum o descrii tu. Pescarii profesionisti se pricem MULT mai bine decat indienii la pescuit. Si totusi nu-i vezi zburdand de veselie. Pe Discovery e o emisiune "Deadliest Catch" - fix despre greutatile vietii de pescar. Bineinteles, e vorba despre pescuit pentru multi oameni, nu despre dat la peste la misto, pentru fript cativa pesti intr-o dupa-amiaza. Dar daca idealul tau este sa mananci din cand in cand, atunci da, viata tribala e minunata. Sa nu-mi spui ca nu se intampla sa se moara de foame. N-ar fi existat migratii ale populatiilor daca toata lumea traia intr-un fel de gradina a edenului in care nu-i nevoie decat sa culegi fructe si sa vanezi sau pescuiesti cateva ore pe zi.

Multe din ideile pe care le vehiculezi sunt interesante, atat timp cat te limitezi la problemele sistemului actual. Dar cand o dai in demonstratii ale superioritatii sistemului tribal ne-ai pierdut pe toti. Ca nu poti hrani o populatie de 6 miliarde de oameni prin metode tribale ar trebui sa ii fie clar oricarei persoane. Cand militezi pentru o viata tribala, ignorand acest fapt cat se poate de simplu, te discreditezi ca partener de discutie rational. Practic ce faci tu aici se numeste prozelitizm religios, si nu are nimic de-a face cu nici un argument logic.
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jet li
mesaj 3 Sep 2009, 11:20 PM
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Da, pe care nu le citeste nimeni.

1. Tribul e o organizare. Sa traiesti intr-un trib nu inseamna sa faci pe prostu. Adica sa stii sa iti usurezi viata dar sa zici "nu , eu traiesc in pestera, asta inseamna trib !"
Un trib e o organizare sociala. Care apare peste tot. Unde nu exista sistemul. Sau unde sistemul dispare. In copilarie fiecare om a avut tribul lui incipient. Va spun eu ca acel trib ar fi durat milioane de ani daca nu intervenea scoala, sistemul, etc etc.


2. Nu ai inteles nimic in privinta "muncii" vanatorilor culegatori. De ce nu alergau spre civilizatia noastra ? Nu ai vazut citatul de mai sus ? Prizonierii albi ramaneau cu ei , de ce oare daca aveau o viata asa de grea ?
Ce ii facea pe acei oameni sa fuga de "civilizatie" si sa doreasca sa ramana in noul lor trib de indieni indiferenti chiar fata de propriile familii ? Magie voodoo ? Nebunie ? Nu e civilizatia noastra cea mai buna ? Care e problema?
De ce nu vor toti sa ni se alature ?
De ce nu exista un singur inidan adoptat de "noi" (noi nu existam) care sa nu vrea pentru nimic in lume sa se intoarca la ai lui ? Vedeti mai sus ce spune Benjamin Franklin. Chiar asa de rai suntem ? Problema e ca noi am facut lucrarea - civilizatia, si noi ne-am dat nota. Nu acceptam comentarii de la nimeni.
Sa zicem ca am "adopta" un om dintr-un trib. Urmarea : gata, ia treci tu la munca 8 pe pe zi, cu program, sef, sclavie, bani, nu mai ai trib - prieteni, nu mai ai "gift economy", muncesti, dormi , repeti, mori. Asta-i tot ce iti oferim.

Adica "ofer". Nu, nu exista "noi". De asta iti dai seama numai cand se intampla sa cazi din caruta sistemului. Atunci toate prostiile cu "noi romanii" , noi sa facem, noi mai buni sai mai prosti ca ailalti, dispar. "Noi" te invitam sa mori. Daca poti intr-un mod discret. Cersetorii strica peisaju.

Asta nu intelegi si nu ai cum sa intelegi. Imagineaza-ti ca toata strada ta te cunoaste si ar fi gata sa lupte pentru tine, pentru ca esti de-al lor. Ca si cum ai fi in mafie dar fara bani si capitalism. Nici nu se pune problema sa nu te ajute oricand. Tu de asemenea iti place sa imparti ce ai, ca intre prieteni. Asta au gasit prizonierii albi la indieni, asta e "magia" care i-a facut sa ramana. Comunitate, unitate. lucruri vagi pe care "noi" incercam sa ni le imaginam. Le mai obtinem cateodata, cateva ore pe saptamana asa de gust, un fel de imitatii.

QUOTE
FIVE tribesmen from the South Pacific Island of Tanna, one of the most southerly islands of the nation of Vanuatu, visited Britain recently to observe the country's tribes working class, middle class and upper class


Visiting their first British city is an exciting and eye opening experience for the islanders but they are saddened to discover how many homeless people are living on the streets.
How, they ask, is it possible for a city with so much wealth to contain people with no home or family to shelter them?


Brazilia :
QUOTE
You have church groups, relief agencies, military operators, social scientists, archeologist's, etc...all dying to get their hands on people like this. Of course, they would get killed trying to do it from the ground, these tribes will out and out kill you as an outsider. The west shows up with radios and food, they look at it hastly and toss it aside, tell you to leave. One kid starts messing with the radio and picks up some music, people in the tribe start to get intrigued. They open up the food, and have a taste, its good and safe. A few weeks later, a landrover shows up with more things, they communicate in archaic means, give them t-shirts with Nike logos and shoes to boot. These tribes are all now big pimpin.
They move into the nearest big city, get shaved up, loose the war paint and get a job cleaning urinals at the local Hilton hotel. Before you know it, the tribe has lost contact with each other and the people individually begin to enter into a deep cycle of poverty, they are unbelievably sad. They get a group of people back together, by shear luck, they take a bus to the border of the inhabited areas, they go and take rental cars as far as they can go. They walk back into their lands, its nothing but smoke, machinery, cane fields and a totally lost culture. They go back, live off the rest of their lives a miserable existence. In Brazil, we talked to Army guys that were born into these kinds of situations, they can talk about this stuff at great length. It so sad to listen to, they were living a fairly decent life. They had death and other issues, but at the very least they were happy, until man showed up and tempted them. The story gets repeated over and over again so many times people have lost count. When I would train in areas like this in S.A., we would run into friendly tribes, I always told them to just hold onto what you have and ignore us. We cannot do anything better for you than you can for yourself. We are just passing through. The only time I'd do anything for them was to help someone who was injured, I had medicine so I gave it to them. Never stayed to see if the antibiotics worked out, but thats about the limit of my engagements. They need to be left alone, its better in the jungle than in the city.


Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 3 Sep 2009, 11:30 PM


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Damnatius
mesaj 4 Sep 2009, 05:43 AM
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QUOTE
Nu ai inteles nimic in privinta "muncii" vanatorilor culegatori. De ce nu alergau spre civilizatia noastra ? Nu ai vazut citatul de mai sus ? Prizonierii albi ramaneau cu ei , de ce oare daca aveau o viata asa de grea ?


Viata de vanator-culegator devine automat grea atunci cand resursele se imputineaza. Avand in vedere ca suprafetele pe care se poate vana, culege, sau pescui sunt limitate, cresterea populatiei peste un anumit nivel creeaza lipsuri. Nu-i nimic savant in toata chestia asta. Este cum nu se poate mai simplu. Munca vanatorilor culegatori pe care n-am inteles-o eu deloc poate fi usoara doar in conditiile unei abundente a resurselor. Iar abundenta resurselor fara a folosi metode moderne de cultivare este posibila doar pentru o populatie foarte limitata.

Tu chiar nu intelegi chestia asta? Am o intrebare simpla pentru tine. Sa presupunem ca printr-un miracol oamenii ar avea posibilitatea si dorinta sa treaca la un sistem tribal. Crezi ca planeta poate sustine 6 miliarde de oameni fara agricultura organizata? Da sau nu?
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Cla
mesaj 4 Sep 2009, 06:07 AM
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Da chiar, 6 miliarde sunt deja. Pe când eram copil, erau 4. Cum sa-i decimam, ca daca o iei asa, peste 20 de ani sunt opt miliarde sau mai mult.
E nasol de tot. Hai sa ne luam o Olga Kalashnikova si sa ne punem pe treaba spoton.gif


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jet li
mesaj 4 Sep 2009, 08:49 AM
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Nu, planeta nu poate sustine 6 miliarde fara agricultura moderna
Un trib e o organizare sociala. Nu implica "eu nu ma ating de tractor, eu trib !". Poate face si agricultura moderna daca are chef. Da putem fi un trib, asta e starea noastra naturala, si orice om cand zice "noi" - referindu-se la orasul lui, tara lui, satul lui - are in subconstient idea de "noi", trib. Egalitate intre oameni : stii ce inseamna asta ? Inseamna oameni care se poarta intre ei cu respect, si nici unul nu indrazneste sa ii spuna altuia ce sa faca - un lucru foarte jignitor la ei. Nu inseamna ca sunt "egali". Difera intre ei daca ii masori in diverse moduri.

Cresterea populatiei ? Populatia a crescut de cand cu inventia agriculturii, si indiferent cata mancare produci, populatia o sa continue sa creasca. Vanatorii culegatori nu aveau probleme cu hrana. Pana nu au venit europenii si au vanat tot.
Primii fermieri civilizati - aia aveau probleme.

QUOTE
Living in today's depleted world, it is hard to imagine its original bounty:

Early European accounts of this continent's opulence border on the unbelievable. Time and again we read of "goodly woods, full of Deere, Conies, Hares, and Fowle, even in the middest of Summer, in incredible aboundance," of islands "as completely covered with birds, which nest there, as a field is covered with grass," of rivers so full of salmon that "at night one is unable to sleep, so greate is the noise they make" . . . They describe rivers so thick with fish that they "could be taken not only with a net but in baskets let down [and weighted with] a stone."iv



Agricultura, de ce avem mancare suficienta acum ? Nu chiar suficienta sunt vreun miliard de subnutriti.

Pe vremuri agricultura noastra "civilizata" ne aducea cate o foamete la fiecare 10 ani. Spre deosebire de vanatorii culegatori - care depindeau de multe surse de hrana, foametea era ceva rar la ei. A, dar am uitat, nu exista "noi". Secolele trecute ? "Pai pe atunci erau regi si regine si cavaleri si cruciade". Nimic spus despre serbii care mureau de foame muncindu-le pamanturile. Dar nu exista "noi" asa ca nu ne intereseaza.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2004/02/0079915
QUOTE
Plato wrote of his country's farmlands:

What now remains of the formerly rich land is like the skeleton of a sick man. . . . Formerly, many of the mountains were arable. The plains that were full of rich soil are now marshes. Hills that were once covered with forests and produced abundant pasture now produce only food for bees. Once the land was enriched by yearly rains, which were not lost, as they are now, by flowing from the bare land into the sea. The soil was deep, it absorbed and kept the water in loamy soil, and the water that soaked into the hills fed springs and running streams everywhere. Now the abandoned shrines at spots where formerly there were springs attest that our description of the land is true.

Plato's lament is rooted in wheat agriculture, which depleted his country's soil and subsequently caused the series of declines that pushed centers of civilization to Rome, Turkey, and western Europe. By the fifth century, though, wheat's strategy of depleting and moving on ran up against the Atlantic Ocean. Fenced-in wheat agriculture is like rice agriculture. It balances its equations with famine. In the millennium between 500 and 1500, Britain suffered a major “corrective” famine about every ten years; there were seventy-five in France during the same period. The incidence, however, dropped sharply when colonization brought an influx of new food to Europe.

Avem pentru ca s-au inventat ingrasamintele artificiale. Fara ele - revenim la populatia din 1800 sau mai jos.

Si o carte : http://www.scribd.com/doc/7829409/Daniel-Q...Ismael-Romanian

Am scris despre lucrurile astea in atatea locuri incat mi-e lene sa le repet oricand apare cineva nou. Trib nu inseamna ca ne punem pene in cap si ne ferim de tehnologie ca cine stie ce secta religioasa. Tocmai tehnologia ar trebui sa ne usureze viata nu ? Vezi blog din semnatura mea.

Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 4 Sep 2009, 09:05 AM


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Theodoric
mesaj 4 Sep 2009, 10:23 AM
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jet li, tu pleci de la o problema si gasesti o solutie extrema.
Are invatamantul probleme? DA!!! Solutie: renuntarea completa la invatamantul organizat si inlocuirea lui cu o forma ideala arhaica. Si imediat extrapolezi la societate in ansamblul ei.

Daca invatamantul nu e perfect ar trebui sa gasim metode de a-l imbunatati. Adica facem schimbari unde trebuie si lasam neschimbat ce functioneaza. Asta e metoda care da cele mai bune rezultate. Tarile scandinave au cel mai avansat invatamant din lume si nivelul de trai cel mai ridicat. La o adica prefer sa inteleg si sa aplic ceea ce au reusit ei in materie de invatamant decat sa cad in extrema nu stiu carui trib disparut de mult.

Una din binefacerile democratiei este ca parerile extreme nu reusesc sa adune suficienti adepti pentru a deveni majoritate. Pentru a testa extremitatea unei pareri este suficient sa o postezi pe un forum. Daca nimeni nu o apreciaza si te simti nevoit sa citezi zeci de texte pentru a ti le argumenta inseamna ca ai adoptat o extrema nesanatoasa.


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turbo trabant
mesaj 4 Sep 2009, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE(jet li @ 4 Sep 2009, 08:49 AM) *
Am scris despre lucrurile astea in atatea locuri incat mi-e lene sa le repet oricand apare cineva nou.

jet li tu scrii despre religia ta si nu accepti argumente logice.


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Romanii, ca popor, sunt prosti. Nu va chinuiti sa raspundeti, considerati posturile drept opera unui dusman al poporului.

Ba, ia faceti liniste si ordine, ce dreacu!
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jet li
mesaj 4 Sep 2009, 11:27 AM
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Cine nu citeste nu stie.
Cum as face : inveti copilu sa citeasca, sa scrie si niste matematica de baza. Il lasi in pace sa faca ce vrea pana la 14 ani. Apoi se duce la scoala specializata care ii place. Are nevoie de libertatea asta pentru a creste si nu vorbesc de inaltime. Vezi in primul post, in 13 luni daca vrei te invata sa construiesti o casa si o barca cu panze. Nu 12 ani - pentru nimic.
De aia cei dati mai tarziu la scoala - au rezultate mai bune. Dati la 7 ani - se descurca mai bine decat dati la 6 ani. Au avut timp sa se formeze putin.



http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-sto...ression-boom-1/

Prescolari cu depresii. De ce oare ? De ce credeti ? Un copil liber si cu spatiu de joaca - joaca fiind de fapt descoperirea lumii, invatare pe cont propriu, nu are depresii. Un copil cu viata impartita in "libertate" si "program" normal ca are. Pana la urma spiritul ii e distrus si accepta totul ca pe "asa sunt lucrurile". Apoi creste si se integreaza in masina. Daca i se mai dau si medicamente - antidepresive, reteta perfecta pentru un adult zombie.



Cum naiba sa ii umpli viata copilului de la 6 ani cu "vioara, matematica, gimnastica ? Cand mai are timp sa vada si el lumea asta in care a aparut si pe care e atat de curious sa o exploreze - pe cont propriu ? Asta fiind de fapt singurul mod real in care invata ceva despre el, despre ce poate, si castiga incredere in sine.
Cum ar fi sa te duci in vacanta sa vezi "Tara X" si acolo sa te forteze unul sa urmezi un program, in loc sa te lase sa te plimbi, sa explorezi , sa decizi singur ce vrei sa cauti, incepe cu "4 ore de istorie urmate de 4 ore de bla bla pe zi".

Asta e intr-adevar un lucru "inuman". Mai potrivit pentru masini sau roboti. Lui Data din Star Trek i s-ar potrivi asa ceva, nu unei fiinte vii.


Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 4 Sep 2009, 11:29 AM


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LINICA
mesaj 4 Sep 2009, 12:01 PM
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jet li,
inteleg/imi imaginez viata de care spui. Intr-o familie ok asa stau lucrurile si membrii nu au nevoie de o tara intreaga sa se simta bine. Caci fiecare isi da silinta sa nu fie prost si sa ii ajute si pe mezini sa se destepte. Cu un gram de "a nu lua viata in serios" acest ajutor e tot distractie. Dar aceasta familie este acul in sacul cu fan si, vand nevrand, cei care s-au desteptat mai repede, ii conduc pe ceilalti. Daca ar exista ce zici tu, sa ii lasi pe astia mici de capul lor, cred ca toate animalele si toate femile si-ar abandona puii. Ca doar se descurca ei... Dar aceasta imagine miroase deja a moarte, ca mi-e greu sa cred ca toti vor avea bafta lui Remulus si Romulus.

Si da, cand mergem la treaba cu placere, munca e o distractie. Bunicul meu, pietrar fiind, pleca fluierand la 4 dimineata spre cariera si se intorcea "afumat" si pus pe bancuri. Se distra la munca, nu? smile.gif Ei, erau zile cand nu era asa pentru ca fie se intampla sa fie nevasta iar insarcinata, cu probleme, fie ploaia iar i-a zburat coperisul la casa, fie iar a avut o criza de astm...
Ok, pastrandu-ne doar in sfera serviciului/muncii. Ei lucrau la norma(ca noi toti,ca vrem sau nu sa recunoastem). Si erau si cei care nu vroiau sa lucreze. Daca nu era un sef de echipa care sa monitorizeze pe fiecare, bunicul trebuia sa faca treaba altuia, care avea aceleasi forte ca el dar si o lene venita din senin. Nu vorbim de cazurile in care bunicul si alti muncitori tineau locul colegilor care se accidentau sau erau bolnavi pentru ca lenesii astia "aveau treaba".

Si eu sunt idealista, cred in bucuria vietii. Chiar am participat la un program de supravietuire.
Dar. Ca sa fie totul o distractie, PENTRU TOTDEAUNA, trebuie sa incetezi sa te raportez la altii si sa lupti sa-ti mentii BUCURIA SINELUI (fara sa te droghezi). Ori, aici, pe pamant, este aproape imposibil sa fie totul placere- distractie- armonie... Si este truda, fie ca e la nivel de cladire personala, fie la nivel material - cladirea unei case.

Concluzie:Exista copii destepti si copii prosti.
Pentru ca: exista lenesi si exista harnici, exista egoisti si exista altruisiti, exista bolnavi si exista sanatosi, exista copii si exista parinti ..... si pentru ca nu poti sa iei doar capul, sau doar pajura dintr-o moneda, chiar daca nu ai nevoie de amandoua.

Edit: In ce priveste modelul de educatie de care amintesti, sa stii ca exista scoli speciale, unde se aplica mai multe metode de invatare. Si pentru cine nu are bani sa sustina participarea copiilor la un astfel de program, exista ong-uri de educare. Mai bine le-am sustine, iar tinerii care cresc cu aceasta experienta, vor dori sa o transmita mai departe - fie printr-un program, fie printr-o reforma in educatia nationala.

Acest topic a fost editat de LINICA: 4 Sep 2009, 12:07 PM
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jet li
mesaj 4 Sep 2009, 08:39 PM
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Triburile nu "munceau". Cum muncea bunicul tau la cariera sau eu la birou.

Ceva la care m-am gandit acum : de ce ei desenau si cantau ce faceau la "munca" ? Vanatoare, sau ce faceau ei ? Pentru ca aia era viata lor, nu exista separare. Nu exista "timp liber" sau "munca" doar viata. Si vanatoarea o faceau cu placere. Cum ar fi sa faci munca ta - dar impreauna cu toti prietenii care te ajuta, si cand ai terminat ai terminat nu "stai aici 8 ore sclavule !". Apoi nu ai program, nu ai sefi, etc etc. Nu aveau salarii, si nici nu le trebuiau bani, imparteau rezultatele "muncii".
Fara stres, fara problema ca "iti poti pierde slujba" apoi trebuie sa concurezi cu cei din jurul tau pentru a-ti gasi un nou stapan. Doar sa imi imaginez indienii Sioux cum se bat intre ei pentru dreptul de a servi vreun stapan 8 ore pe zi sa faca tot ce zice ala, mi se face rau. De la ideea asta de separare, fiecare pentru el...Ceva total strain intr-un trib.

Cum naiba sa "iti pierzi locul de munca" ? Pai indienii ca niste oameni destepti : daca nu aveau nevoie - nu munceau. Dar noi nu - noi fiecare pentru el, bateti-va sclavilor sa serviti. Vin unii si spun "da ce vrei tu sa stai si altu sa lucreze ?". Mai intai : nu e nevoie si loc sa muncim toti : impartim deci munca, cum se faca intr-un trib, obtinem toti si rezultatele si timpul liber.

De ce noi nu prea vorbim despre munca ? Dar sa mai si desenam si sa cantam...

http://www.raw-food-health.net/HunterGatherers.html



Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 4 Sep 2009, 08:56 PM


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(Afrodita)
mesaj 4 Sep 2009, 09:35 PM
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Vrabia malai viseaza laugh.gif
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jet li
mesaj 4 Sep 2009, 11:19 PM
Mesaj #32


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Ce visez ?


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Leonard
mesaj 13 Sep 2009, 10:45 AM
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QUOTE(jet li @ 5 Sep 2009, 12:19 AM) *
Ce visez ?


Este evident ca visezi. Daca ai fi experimentat pe pielea ta si pe termen lung viata tribala de vanator-culegator, n-ai mai veni cu link-uri catre tot felul de elucubratii. Ne-ai povesti mai degraba despre cat de bine traiti tu si tribul tau in corturi dotate cu laptop si Internet wireless. Iar drept dovada ne-ai pune si poze facute cu aparatul tau digital pe care l-ai fabricat singur dupa ce-ai facut cursuri timp de o luna la umbra palmierului.

Spui ca tribul nu respinge tehnologia moderna, ci doar rigoarea educatiei. Pai tocmai aici e problema, nu poti avea tehnologie inalta fara rigoare.
Traiau nativii americani in mare belsug ca vanatori si culegatori, dar le-au stricat europenii jucaria? Pai europenii n-au fost si ei vanatori-culegatori organizati in triburi la vremea cand au ajuns primii oameni in America? De ce-or fi abandonat modelul asta social daca era asa de mare fericirea?

Si fiindca tot pomenesti de citit, stii ce am citit eu legat de triburile din padurile amazoniene? Ca sufera permanent de foame. Si acolo nici macar nu e iarna. Dupa cum nu-i iarna nici prin Africa, dar e plin de copii cu burta enorma din cauza foametei. Si mai sunt si copii care au abandonat scoala de buna voie sau fortati pentru a face cursuri intensive de utilizare a kalashnikovului. Deh, un fel de vanatori tribali inzestrati cu tehnologie.

Acest topic a fost editat de Leonard: 13 Sep 2009, 11:32 AM
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mutulica
mesaj 15 Sep 2009, 05:07 AM
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QUOTE(jet li @ 5 Sep 2009, 12:19 AM) *
Ce visez ?

sa pice para malaiata?


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jet li
mesaj 16 Sep 2009, 10:47 AM
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Copii aia fortati sa foloseasca AK47 si sa se lupte nu mai sunt de mult in trib. Unde ai citit si ce ai citit ? Eu am vazut tocmai acum un documentar despre Amazon, facut in 2007 :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/amazon/sites/episodes/index.shtml

Intalneste multe triburi - si aia care sufera sunt tocmai aia care au avut mai mult contact cu civilizatia.

Sa va explic : un trib nu inseamna sa ma duc in padure, sa aprind focu cu 2 bete si sa iau scalpuri "ca asa e traditia !". Un trib e o organizatie sociala, evoluata timp de sute de mii de ani in care oamenii au cautat fericirea. Nu e ceva impus. E ceva natural. Apare de la sine pentru orice grup de oameni liberi. Nu are legatura cu "ai laptop". Daca in organizarea tribala - de oameni liberi, nu mai ai sclavi care din proprie dorinta si pentru ca asa le place - sa mineze, sa distruga planeta, apoi sa fabrice componentele - asta e, nu mai ai laptop. Dar ai oameni fericiti. Pentru ca asta e un trib - oamenii nu au cautat nefericirea cand s-au organizat asa. Fara sa-i forteze nimeni.
Uite-i pe astia :

Cand ii intreaba exploratoru "da voi cand va pictati, ziua, noaptea, e un ritual ?" aia ii spun "nu, oricand avem chef, oricand e un moment bun sa ne pictam". Desigur astia era niste oameni morti de foame, abia asteptand sa fie "salvati" din padure. Bagati la scoala, unde sa fie bine indoctrinati cu idea ca "sunt buni numai de gunoieri sau tarani prosti", urmeaza apoi o viata de sclav. Unde se bat intre ei pentru lucruri materiale.
Spre deosebire de gramada de timp liber pe care o aveau in padurea lor, si comunitatea pe care o aveau. Cea mai mare parte a timpului o petrec stand "degeaba". Dansuri, picturi, etc etc.

Exploratorul filmeaza si niste mineri, care distrug zona - nu pentru ca sunt maniaci si ii excita sa taie copacii, sa polueze raurile, sa traiasca intre gunoaie, ci pentru ca alta sansa nu au. Nu se pricep sa traiasca in padure ca nativii.

http://www.survival-international.org/home
QUOTE
The islanders are clearly extremely healthy, alert and thriving, in marked contrast to the two Andaman tribes who have ‘benefited’ from Western civilization, the Onge and the Great Andamanese, whose numbers have crashed and who are now largely dependent on state handouts just to survive.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy#Pirate_Democracy
QUOTE
Unlike traditional Western societies of the time, many pirate crews operated as limited democracies. Pirate communities were some of the first to instate a system of checks and balances similar to the one used by the present-day United States and many other countries. The first record of such a government aboard a pirate sloop dates to the 1600s, a full century before the United States' and France's adoption of democracy in 1789, or Spain's move to democracy in 1812. [28]

Both the captain and the quartermaster were elected by the crew; they, in turn, appointed the other ship's officers. The captain of a pirate ship was often a fierce fighter in whom the men could place their trust, rather than a more traditional authority figure sanctioned by an elite. However, when not in battle, the quartermaster usually had the real authority. Many groups of pirates shared in whatever they seized; pirates injured in battle might be afforded special compensation similar to medical or disability insurance.

There are contemporary records that many pirates placed a portion of any captured money into a central fund that was used to compensate the injuries sustained by the crew. Lists show standardised payments of 600 pieces of eight ($156,000 in modern currency) for the loss of a leg down to 100 pieces ($26,800) for loss of an eye. Often all of these terms were agreed upon and written down by the pirates, but these articles could also be used as incriminating proof that they were outlaws.

Pirates readily accepted outcasts from traditional societies, perhaps easily recognizing kindred spirits, and they were known to welcome them into the pirate fold. For example as many as 40% of the pirate vessels crews were slaves liberated from captured slavers. Such practices within a pirate crew were tenuous, however, and did little to mitigate the brutality of the pirate's way of life.


Acum o sa mi ziceti "aa tii cu piratii !". Si eu o sa spun ca nu am cu cine vorbi.

Acest topic a fost editat de jet li: 16 Sep 2009, 11:08 AM


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