In schimb "yesmeni" au fost tot timpul.....cu noi!
Replica ta de mai sus e OFF-TOPIC!
Termenul corect este arman nu aroman. Aroman e o inventie mai recenta a istoricilor romani. Romani de la nord de Dunare au pierdut prin aspiratie pe "a".
Roman si german are aceeasi radacina desi nu exista legaturi de rudenie intre cele doua popoare. Am mai spus la o altarubrica ca numele popoarelorasa cum sunt cunoscute azi e unul aleatoriu si nu are intotdeauna o corespondenta cu poporul de la care si-a lut numele.
Asa cum celtii au locuit intr-un spatiu ce se intindea din Irlanda (in vest) pana pe taramul Galatei si Galitia (in est), asa si populatiile armanice au colocuit cu celelalte popare, printre care si celtii (galii) pe o vasta intindere a Europei.
Fraierii ce sustin o romanizare a asa numitilor daci in mai putin de 2 secole ar face mai bine sa vina cu argumente daca tot vor sa fie ironici. Daca nu, ciocu' mic si spune ca parera ta nu e decat o supozitie si ca nu ai argumente solide.
O limba nu are cum sa dispara complet in cei cativa anisori de ocupatie romana.

Acest topic a fost editat de gio19ro: 17 Nov 2005, 08:15 PM

Este la fel de off-topic cat este si mentiunea armanilor. Aici era vorba de genetic vs cultural/politic. Daca tu vrei sa vorbesti despre armani, eu nu ma supar, dar nu te supara daca vreau sa vorbesc si eu.

Care-s dom'le aceste populatii?

Nu cred ca a sustinut cineva asa ceva (desi chiar daca ar sustine-o, ar fi ceva improbabil, nu imposibil). Dar cred ca asta este acelasi straw man pe care l-ai facut si in ultima discutie.

Odata ti-am argumentat si ti-am desfiintat citatele tale in care anumite etnonime/toponime au fost deformate. Ti-am adus suficiente dovezi pentru legatura intre limba romana si latina. Ti-am adus circumstante istorice.
In schimb n-am vazut nici-un argument de la tine decat repetarea aceleiasi mantre. Vehementa ta este penibila.

Nimeni n-a sustinut asta. Te bati tu si cu neintelegerile tale.
Si ce-i cu "anisorii" aia? Pe vremea aia se invartea Pamantul mai repede?

Mai multe aberatii decat cuvinte

Un scurt rezumat la acest thread.....exista doar trei popoare neto: Grecii. Armenii si Evreii!

Scurt, direct, elegant si tare

Sorin.

t0 despre care am spus nu este o secunda cum te-ai facut tu ca intelegi. Bineinteles ca e vorba de un interval mare de ani. Am pus vreo 300 de ani mai inainte.

Sa le zici asta unor francezi daca ai curaj!

Acest topic a fost editat de Lucifer: 23 Mar 2006, 05:06 AM

Geneticienii inteleg altceva prin caracter, caractere in comparatie cu psihologii sau cu alti oameni.
Ceea ce este un om este influentat de materialul genetic, de educatie, de tipul de viata, de mediu, etc; in aceasta ordine aproximativa, ca importanta. Nu are rost sa comparam popoarele intre ele pentru ca nu sunt omogene genetic si ceea ce este cel mai important, nici nu vor fi. Daca lumea va mai fi, atunci cu siguranta oamenii nu vor trai izolati.
Originea unui popor nu este una genetica, ci este una spirituala. Daca vrei sa vezi cum s-au plimbat oamenii pe pamant poti folosi genetica, dar ideea de a stabili cum s-au plimbat popoarele este tampita. Poporul nu este format din oameni, este o notiune careia ii subscriu un numar de oameni, cu sau fara voia lor.
Daca doi gemeni asa zis identici beneficiaza de educatie diferita, s-ar putea sa ai cateva elemente sau mai multe izbitor de identice si foarte multe izbitor de diferite, daca esti psiholog si ii "analizezi" dupa caracter. Si tot asa. Am comparat gemenii in ideea ca trebuie comparati oamenii cu ei insisi, pusi in situatii diferite, nu cu ceilalti, chiar daca fac parte din acelasi popor, si cum popoarele nu pot fi formate din gemeni nu are nici un fel de relevanta. Popoarele pot fi analizate istoric ca oglinda a caracterului acelor oameni, dar luat separat un om al respectivului popor nu se suprapune nici macar ca asemanare peste caracterul poporului. Este o tampenie. A...italienii nu stiu ce caractere au, aiurea; tine de istorie cum sunt acestia, daca iei materialul genetic sa zicem "media" nu faci un nou popor pentru simplul motiv ca acesta este si un rezultat al celorlalte gene care apartin popoarelor din jur(in ideea absurda ca acestea nu se suprapun). Istoria lor este comuna cu istoria altor "vectori de gene", deci materialul lor genetic a fost influentat in mediul sa zicem creat de actiunea altui material genetic si tot asa, este o prostie pur si simplu sa bagi genele in discutie pentru a stabili caracterul poporului.
Alta idiotenie este aceea de a stabili ce fel de popor este al nostru in functie de genetica. Uite sa stabilim cea mai neagra varianta, ca am fi "identici" cu rusii, da? Atata timp cat vorbim o limba cu structura gramaticala latina sau nu e latina? Ce ziceti? Deci cat vorbim altfel structural decat rusii suntem ceea ce credem noi si pretindem noi, ca popor, nu ceea ce stabileste materialul genetic. Daca noi ne credem fii ai lunii si vorbim ca luna aia suntem. Poporul este definit prin istorie si nu prin influentele pe care materialul genetic si alte lucruri "certe" le stabilesc. Fragmentul de jos mi se pare cel mai idiot:

pentru ca popoarele disparute sunt pur si simplu disparute, iar cei pe care ii gasesti in locul lor, chiar daca au acelasi material genetic cu cei din mormintele poporului disparut nu sunt acel popor. Mai ales pentru ca nu au aceeasi istorie, pentru ca istoria este ceva care are inceput si are sfarsit.

Acest topic a fost editat de fis_tic: 25 Mar 2006, 05:24 AM

Ioana D'Arc.

Am vazut saptamana trecuta un documentar de la BBC care a incercat sa explice evolutia lui Homo Sapiens.
Pe cand a ajuns in Asia, s-ar fi asimilat cu Homo Erectus, care inca predomina acolo si asa s-ar fi facut rasa asiatica.
Puteti spune ce vreti, explicatia chiar ca e plauzibila.

din studiile genetice ar reiesi ca romanii sunt cei mai asemanatori cu slavi ,in speta cu bulgarii

Am gasit un articol interesant pe un site bulgaresc. Spun interesant pentru ca se refera la cercetarile facute de o echipa condusa de academicianul Yordan Ivanov, studii ce au legatura cu dacii din Moesia, cu genetica, cu importanta dacilor in Balcani ...
Nu inseamna ca sunt de acord cu toate lucrurile prezentate in text, insa am gasit citeva idei interesante
Dau articolul in intregime pentru ca linkurile spre site-urile bulgaresti mai mult nu functioneaza decit functioneaza.

prima parte a articolului :

DACIAN-MOESIAN GENOME– researched by the Bulgarian in 1975
Academician Yordan Ivanov and assistant Ana Zografova - a corresponding member of MABIC Academy E-mail: acad.iordan_ivanov@abv.bg



Another consecutive Megaproject of IBM, National Geographic Magazine and White Foundation in 2005 has put in motion a research study on tracing back the Y-chromosome. It has been examined the mitochondrial DNA of 100 000 sample representatives of the basic ethnic groups and nations. The goals of the project aim at establishing the origin of the oldest population, creating the most powerful database and marking out the route of the first paleohistorical migration of HOMO SAPIENS. The accomplishment of this gigantic research study was provoked by a Bulgarian as early as in 1975.

At that time, on the oral orders of Todor Zhivkov, some scholarly teams proposed by the eminent researcher Yordan Ivanov started working on elucidation the "Shop" ethnic group.
The first findings from 1975 about the human genome in Bulgaria were brought out by the researcher Yordan Stoilov Ivanov who was conferred with the title "academician" in 2005. His research paper dealing with matters of studying the language of animals and the problems of outer space (of the period of 1975-1980) was especially sent to the Academy of Science of the USSR.
His conclusion that Bulgarians' ancestors took part in creating the ethnogenesis of over three milliard 500 million inhabitants on the planet was so shocking at the time that some scholars put a ban on giving publicity to the research which gave an account of their dead and alive successors.

So, in 1975 the researcher made the statement that the genetic Bulgarian blood could be discovered and registered in areas covering 5/8 of the northern hemisphere. The special programme developed by our science, required the scholarly teams of the People's Republic of Bulgaria after 1975 to make clear whose genome is the most productive and the steadiest. Thus, the scholars, on a proposal from Yordan Stoilov Ivanov, had to consider whether his statements were true. The basis on which it is being worked nowadays was actually hinted by the research work of the Bulgarian scholar. "Making their conclusions, the scholars will get to the Dacian-Moesians and the Shops once again" says the academician explicitly.

The USA's project from 2002 on examining the human genome overthrew Darwin's theory as it was proved that the modern HOMO SAPIENS did not descend from the apes and they are not successors of the Neanderthals but appeared not less than 150 000 years ago.
And the Bulgarian genome, coded with the marker EM78-alpha in the same research, recorded that 21% of our contemporaries are descendants of ethnic groups which lived on Bulgarian lands 7 800 years ago. Academician Yordan Ivanov comments that the percentage is much bigger than 21 %. This is so because the representatives of only one Bulgarian ethnic group, the Shops, are of origin which is superior to the others.
His specific investigations and researches from 1975-1980 are not only in compliance with the modern findings on the human genome study accomplished by Russian and American teams but are also considerably ahead of the latter's time. So far over 50 terabytes of information about the genetic human code have been recorded on the Internet and that, according to the programmers of the USA's projects, is somewhat of an informational "tsunami" containing data about adenine, thymine, cytosine and guanine – A, T, C and G – the four nucleobases in the human DNA which build up the genes and thus form the personality and the behaviour of Homo Sapiens.
And all the novelties about the sequenced genome demand huge investments in high technologies. It is so because, for example, one research of the human genome in collaboration with CELERA Genomics Corporation costs $3,000,000,000. The aims of undertakings of this kind are: making a computerized analysis, working out data about the physical and functional mapping of the human genome, clarifying the molecular diagnostics, identifying new genes, as well as cloning and sequencing.

It is gone as far as to searching for new genes in humans on the ground of bioinformatics, finding out the cause-and-effect of the genetic relations and bringing out the role of individual genes and their mutations, etc. But let us go back to the Bulgarian research whose final conclusion is that the dominant gene has kept through the ages our fellow-countrymen's belonging to these oldest tribes which carried the genes of the Dacian-Moesians, Sapaeans, Saps (Shops) – the oldest autochthonic population of the Balkans from Moesia to Dacia which initiated the origin of the ancient Bulgarians.

The Bulgarian scholar proved that the Dacian-Moesians and the Baltic-Illyrians are the first steadiest ethnic groups on the Balkans and this fact was confirmed by the ethnologist Professor Peter Petrov in the late 1980s. The latter, together with some anthropologists defined the researcher academician Yordan Stoilov Ivanov as a wonder man who kept the features of an unchangeable Dacian-Moesian genotype aged 6 900. Yordan Stoilov Ivanov's doctrine provoked, within the context of the thesis about the dominant and the recessive gene, one more secret research of a team of anthropologists from the academic circles in Bulgaria in the 1980s.
These anthropologists found out that at this time the Balkans were inhabited by 65-66% of the representatives of the Dacian-Moesians from the southeastern subracial type, 12% of the Middle European subracial type /Geths – Goths/ typified as Slavs, 6-8% of the Middle Asian subracial type and s.o.

The project on the megagenetic research of IBM, National Geographic Magazine and White Foundation dwells also on the question whether the legions of Alexander the Macedonian /who was a Dacian-Moesian on his mother's side/ left their seeds, i.e. genetic traces, on their routes conquering the East and Asia. On this very occasion acad. Yordan Ivanov reminded that the troops of Alexander the Great were not at all "Hellenes" as the Roman and Greek chronicles described them.
Only the hired Greek soldiers were no more than two or three thousand. However, there is something else which is more important: during the marches over 100 000 of Alexander's Dacian-Moesian soldiers dwelt on the lands of Bactria of that time. They also left their race and gene there: in Parthia, Bactria and India.

The Bulgarian archaeological find in 2004 of human bones of a woman aged 8000 in the district of Vratsa, has given rise to some anthropological researches which another Bulgarian scholar, the anthropologist and director of the Institute of Anthropology at BAS professor Yordan Yordanov, comments: "The results of the research on the bone material are known to few scholars only.
They have never been discussed widely.
On the background of the information about the historical and cultural development as well as the religious concepts over the various ages, the data presents the human physical types, knowledge about illnesses and traumas which left traces on their bones and the healing ritual influence on them". On a similar occasion professor Yordan Yordanov worked out sample restorations of images using plastic anthropological reconstruction. Among his most interesting masterpieces are the heads of the ruler Sevt III and a Dacian-Moesian princess dating back as far as 8 000 years ago. In the 20th century the Swedish scholar Wloff Isaksson scientifically proved that the development of the first Euro-civilization started from the core of the Balkans. This is so because the oldest ore-mining centres all over the world appeared 7-5000 years ago there, in the valley of the river Ittyl /today's Danube/, in Moesia and Dacia.

Acest topic a fost editat de exergy33: 15 Jun 2009, 05:42 AM

partea a doua

In the 1980s acad. Yordan Ivanov proved that the first ancient native ethnic groups - Dacian-Moesians, Saps and Seps were the first to domesticate the sheep and the goat as they raised livestock.
Perhaps Herodotus "forgot" the greatness of the Saps – Sepians. Nevertheless, he described how some members of the tribe took part in Xerxes' marches against Hellas. Other ancient authors such as Eustatius Byzantine and Strabo identified the Seps with SAI and SINTII.
The same ethnic group whose modern descendants are the Shops /according to academician Yordan Ivanov/ existed after the third flood.
Not a few European historians of non-Bulgarian origin traditionally neglected ancient historical events of great importance as they rewrote the history of the most ancient nations in a manner which pleased the dominant authorities. We have to note that apart from swinging the cradle of the oldest Euro-civilization the autochthonic inhabitants of the Balkans - Dacian-Moesians, Saps-Sapaeans, Phrygians, Pelasgians, Bulgars-Bolgi, created 22 empires and over 50 countries. The contemporary historians literally debone the Balkans from the Dacian-Moesian people laying out the thesis that in the ancient times nearly all of them were Thracians which is absolutely incorrect and untrue!
The interpretation that the population of Moesia and Dacia is actually Thracian is not true. This mistake of the ancient chroniclers was used manipulatively afterwards by some contemporary historians.

These most ancient events were preceded by migrations, demographic expansions and gigantic cataclysms which took place before Noah's flood and the floods preceding it – eight altogether. Thus, 70 000 years ago, the genuses fell apart and the first most ancient nations were formed. Over the ages the proverbial soldier's courage of the Dacian-Moesian and Sapaean ethnic groups became an example to follow.

Academician Yordan Ivanov's research made it clear that the first Bulgarian kingdom, which made a foundation of a building in Europe long before the other European monarchies did, was established on the Balkans. In the scholar's view our ancient ancestors set off from the Balkans like a spiral after the third biblical flood. Thus, during the resettlements, representatives of the native Balkan ethnic groups reached the fertile lands of today's Persia /Babylon/.
Marking out the territories of our ancestors after the last resettlement through Mesopotamia, academician Yordan Ivanov said "After the consequent resettlement these ethnic groups /descendants of the Paleo-Europeans/ began a new life in the areas around the Baikal Lake, on the territories of today's Mongolia, Buriatia, the Turphan Mountain, the Upper Yenisei, Ordos, Obb, the Sayan-Altai region, the Phergan Valley, on the old territories of Sogdiana and Bactria – territories of the Kushan Empire.
Later one part of the ethnic groups migrated to some regions of North-Western India, in the valleys of the rivers Indus, Narmada, Ganges, and afterwards on the territories of today's Afghanistan and Pakistan.
A part of the migrating people moved towards Garcana – today's Caspian Sea". The ancestors – one and the same nation, travelled, migrated, conquered territories and lands of today's Persia, India, South Siberia, the Baikal Area, Mongolia, Buriatia and China and at the same time they left their background, culture, customs, traditions - weaving, stock-breeding. This was the way of whole generations of priests, philosophers, military leaders, poets whose descendants came back later to discover again their homeland on the lands of the Balkans. But on their way they created the great countries – Babylon, the Kushan Empire, the empire of the Honors.
Thus, academician Yordan Ivanov's thesis about the Balkan origin of the Bulgarians after the break-up of the country of Bactria is supported by information from the Kushans– descendants of one of the five tribes called YUEIDGIANS. And the descendants of Kadfiz I and Kadfiz II /45-78/ and the rulers KanishKA /98-123/ created empires and kingdoms, which conquered almost the whole of India.
One of them was called Toharistan. The VasishKA Empire, the empire of Mao Dun and his son Khan Yiu Lao Shan, the empire of Kardama Ila, Hazaria with Karabulgar, Burdjan in the Caucasus, the Old Great Bulgaria of Khan-baltavar Kubrat I the Great from which the Danube Bulgaria descended, the First Bulgarian Kingdom, Volga-Kamska Bulgaria, the temporary country of Dulo, the settlement of the Bulgars on Altsek in the region of Rovena, Djunguria, etc.
There is a countless number of toponyms, anthroponyms and all those names and designations of the tribes known in history as Kushans, BulgARS, BalhARS – descendants of ARS, Tsar's Skiths /Sarmaths/, Kermihioniths, Hons, Khuns, Huns, Huniths, BulgARS, Kotrags, UtigURS, OnogURS, OnogundURS. Nowadays it is considered that the Huns passed from Asia to Europe through the Sea of Azov, which in the most ancient times in acad.

Yordan Ivanov's view was "up to their knees", so that they could pursue the Goths, their cousin-tribes /because the sons and daughters of the ancient chieftains gave birth to the cousin-generations of the ancestors who formed the nations/. In the Chinese annals it can found information about "the Huns of the North" who lived to the north of China, as well as information about the empire of the Honors together with the genealogy of nearly all its rulers.

Academician Yordan Ivanov's thesis is that the Bulgarians created the first empire along the river Ittyl /the Danube/. Its founder, who was declared to be tzar of the world, was called "Lugal-Kalama" and titled emperor. According to "The Anonymous Chronicle" from 333 – 334, he was the ruler to create the first huge empire whose lands spread from Mesopotamia to the Mediterranean, Egypt, India, i. e.the mythical Ziezi. A similar fact was cited also by academician Sergey Ivanov, in "Prehistory of the Ancient Bulgars", published in 2005 by MABIC Academy. On pp. 228-229 it is read: "Mizians, Mesians or Misians, known as Bulgars, this combination was widely used in the old chronicles and what is more ZIEZI is an incorrect reading of "Mezii", i. e. "The Moesian Mezii or Mezei". According to academician Yordan Ivanov Emperor Ziezi /Miezi/ came from Moesia and lived long before the period which the contemporary historians put him in /2 750 – 2 726/ B. C. It is known the same ruler, having incredible soldiers, put under his sway large territories and over 30 tribes and nations. His sons Haital and HuRusan took the nation HuHunors /"The powerful rulers of the world"/ to the lands of the Huns-Eftalits, i. e. today's territories of Balhara and Bactria, where the Eastern Mongolian-speaking group Jun and the Western Iranian-speaking group Hu were formed later.
This EMPIRE OF THE HUNS had rulers who carried the genes of the oldest dynastic family in the world – the family "Dulo". Academician Yordan Ivanov expressed himself metaphorically; "And if we call the barrel of a gun or another firearm DULO, the Bulgarian genes were shot away from the same barrel of the family Dulo in a beautiful sparkler which handed down the blood, through marriages, to all European dynasties over the ages. There were also the Austrian Habsburgs, the French Burbons, the German Hohentsolerns, the English Windsors, etc. Even today, this very forgotten blood of the first Europeans , the blood of the oldest dynastic family in the world, keeps on flowing in the veins of many European kings, queens, monarchs and aristocrats from the families in Poland, England, Denmark, Sweden, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, Montenegro, Spain, Italy, Belgium, Greece and France. That's why we, the Bulgarians, should never forget the fact that we found a Bulgarian kingdom in Europe long before the other monarchies did and the formulation that today we have to integrate to the European family is incorrect. We have to assert our original right of constant presence which actually belongs to us by rights from genetical and historical point of view".
Facts about the empire of the Hunors were found not only in the chronicles but some information about it was given also by Chinese archeologists. The discovery of the ancient city of ТONGWANGCHENG of 419 B. C., built by the Huns XIONG NU, supports it. /Ed. com.This is the so called "Dead City" of the Turkic-speaking Huns tribes. In the Chinese press and in Der Bund newspaper of October 7th, 2002, the same city was repeatedly identified with Phoenix emerging from the ashes dug out from the sands of the desert in its ancient glamour. This city was built in the Chinese Empire by the oldest ethnic group in the world.
The Chinese scholar and researcher Chjou Shuguan, chairman of the Chinese association for the oldest cities, also gave such a definition about the discovery of the city of TONGWANGCHENG. The rulers of this city, who were at war with Tsin Shi Huandi /the dynasty Tsin/ in the period of 212-207 B. C., started building the Great Chinese Wall which defended ancient China against the empire of the Hunors. Emperor Mao Dun and his son Khan Yui Lao Shan also registered a great progress of the empire./ Academician Yordan Ivanov recommends researching the relationships between the rulers of the Chinese Empire and 'the white Northern Barbarians" /the Hunors/ so that it could be given a clarifying explanation of the genealogy of the proto-Bulgars, as well as of some facts and sources, which would be useful to historians. According to his advice the works of Si Ma Tsian, Fan Tsiao, Tszin Shu in "History of Dynasties", Yui Huan and Vei Leu /"The Viei Survey"/, Ban Gu, Tsian Han Shu /"History of the old dynasty Han"/, Syui Tianlin, Sihan Huiao /"Survey of the western dynasty Han"/ should be read in the original. During the last century, the British scholar Collin Effrew called the 6 kilogram gold treasure, discovered in the Varna Necropolis, Bulgaria, "the oldest gold in the world" as it dates back to 5 000 years ago. Academician Yordan Ivanov specifies that it is even much older. The find in Perperikon, the Rhodopes, dating back to the Dacia-Moesian times, is also older. Professor Nikolay Ovcharov claims the latter is related to the Cretan-Mycenaean culture. Because of the unique archaeological finds in the end of the 20th and the beginning of the 21st century: the Thracian city and the tsar's residence of the Odrysaean ruler Amatock below Kozi Gramadi Peak, the finds in the area of Starosel, Tatul, in the Valley of the Kings, in the Central Sredna Gora Mountains and in the district of Vratsa, the ancient history should be read and written again.
It is so because this is the history of the extremely important ancient federal kingdoms of the Odrysaeans, Sapaeans, Bessians and Medians. The academician points out that some scholars wrongfully date them back to the 1st millennium B. C. Actually they are much older.
Those are the ancestors of the legendary Tsar Rezos, the Thracian-Mycenaean Agamemnon, the poet and priest Orpheus, Tamiris from Thrace /Homer/. The legends about these great men were an inspiration for some ancient poets, philosophers and chroniclers such as Vergil, Ovid, Euripides, etc. The priestly royal families of Dacian-Moesian oracles had a lasting presence in the renowned Delphi Sanctuary up to 355. Muzei's son, Evmolp, became the founder of the Evmolpedian dynasty, whose rulers' residence /according to D. Chilikov/ was in the northern part of the Plovdiv Trimontsium. Tsar Spartocus is thought to be the founder of the dynasty of the Spartakoids.

Some other famous rulers of Dacian-Moesian origin were tsar Perisad /344-310/, Evmel /309-304/, Spartocus III /303-283/, Polemon, Asprugus and Mitridath VI, a brother of Cotis. Some Dacian-Moesian rulers who ruled during the 2nd and 3rd century were from the dynasty of Cotis and the dynasty of the Savromaths. One of tsar Remetalk's descendants even became archon of Athens. Famous poets of Dacian-Moesian origin were the authors of fables – Aesop and Phaedrus. One of the brothers of the ancient poet Sappho married the beautiful Thracian princess Phodopis who afterwards became wife of pharaoh Yachmos II /in the period of 569-525 B. C./
The Bulgarian archaeological finds in the Bulgarian Valley of the Kings in the end of the 20th and the beginning of the 21st century proved that our country is a real Klondike for archaeologists. The find of the bronze head of the ruler of the Odrysaean - Sevt III and his gold mask, which are still a subject of discussions, is more valuable and heavier than the renowned mask of Tutankhamen, Agamemnon /a leader and tsar of Dacian-Moesian and Mycenaean origin/. It is known that the great tsars Sevt and Spartocus, who lived on our lands, coined long before the Greeks and the Romans did. This was done in the mints of Sevtopolis and Kabile.

The other extremely important sensational find in the summer of 2005 was uncovered by a team of NHM, lead by professor Daniela Agre as they excavated two of the ten tumuli near the village of Zlatitsa, the district of Elhovo. The necropolis of the Odrysaean tsar /and a priest/ Kerseblept, who was buried in the 4th century B. C., was discovered, too. The funeral was pompous: the ruler was in full armour with a gold wreath, a solid gold tsar's seal-ring and gifts – silver rhytons in the shape of a deer's head. The find includes also four magnificent silver stoups and wonderfully made pottery and bronze vessels.

Analysing the decosersvation of the necropolis, acad. Yordan Ivanov reminded about some characters of inscriptions and scenes on the splendid gold and silver stoups and cups, 165 altogether, from Rogozen made by local Dacian-Moesian masters who engraved inscriptions on historic objects from the time of the Odrysaean and Sapaean kingdoms. On some of the objects, 11 stoups and a jug can be found the names of the rulers Kerseblept, Cotis, Disloyas as well as the name of the settlement of Ergiske. In the same unique set of the Rogozen treasure, found by the tractor-driver Ivan Dimitrov 43 km. to the north-east of Vratsa, between the rivers of Ogosta and Iskar in 1985, can be read the following inscription: "The ruler Cotis made …". The Sapaean dynasty also had unique history on the Balkans. Unfortunately there is scant information about it. In the annals Herodotus was the first to cite the name of the Sapean tribe describing the Sapaeans as participants in the legendary Xerxes' march against Hellas. Eustatius Byzantine and Strabo called the Sapaeans SAI and SYNTHEANS. Here it is due to be mentioned that Abrypolis and one more Sapaean ruler, called in the same way as the Odrysaean Tsar Cotis, ruled during the lifetime of the Macedonian Tsar Perseus. This Sapaean ruler Cotis was father of Raskos and Raskuporis and brother of Remetalk I. Some of the Sapean rulers were allies with Rome. Their prestige was noted in a lot of decrees and other administrative acts of Rome and Athens of that time. In the National Museum of Athens it is kept a marble head having the same image as the one on the coins from the reign of Tsar Cotis and Tsar Raskuporis. The latter was killed by the Bessian priest of Dionysius, Vologesus, who lead the Bessian riot against Rome in 15-13 B. C. It is known that the Sapaean dynasty of Tsar Raskuporis subdued the Odrysaeans and the Bessians. Another scholar and diplomat, the renowned French consul in Sofia during the Russian-Turkish War of Liberation /1877-1878/, Louis Léger, considered the thesis about the language uniformity of the Bulgarian language and the Sanskrit to be diachronic. This thesis was supported by some scholars from time of the Bulgarian National Revival such as G. S. Rakovski. Interpreting the idea of the ancient language uniformity of Moesia, Thrace and Macedonia, Léger claimed that even the oldest Bulgarian texts "Ostomirovite" and "Assemanov Gospel" were originally written in Sanskrit.

Acest topic a fost editat de exergy33: 14 Jun 2009, 08:41 PM

măi să fie! bulgarii ăştia să fie indo-europenii originali? nu prea văd legătura dintre dovezile arheologice şi cele genetice obţinute pe analize făcute pe oameni care trăiesc în zilele noastre... plus că hunii şi alte popoare despre care în articol se susţine că ar fi migrat din Bulgaria spre Asia cred că mai degrabă a fost invers, bulgarii fiind înrudiţi mult mai aproape cu slavii decât cu ungurii sau tracii/daco-geţii.

Cred că o mare lovitură va fi când va putea fi decodat genomul fosilelor cum este "Ion", vechi de peste 30.000 de ani, descoperite nu demult într-o peşteră numită "Peştera cu Oase", cele mai vechi din Europa. Să vedem atunci cine a fost mai întâi, bulgarul sau românul?

Erwin, buna .

Lasind la o parte diversele ipoteze si speculatii (unele din ele foarte vizibile si in articolul pe care l-am postat), trebuie analizate evidentele.

Una din aceste evidente este dat de studiile genetice care arata faptul ca romanii si bulgarii au un fond genetic comun. Acum ramine ca cineva sa explice de ce.

Eu cred ca, bulgarii de azi, indiferent de unde au venit sau de unde incearca sa dovedeasca ca au venit, sau unde au plecat, sunt apropiati genetic de romanii de azi pentru ca ceea ce numim populatie bulgara reprezinta de fapt vechea populatie autohtona care a fost slavizata la inceputurile evului mediu.
In acea perioada tulbure fratii Asan (Petru, Asan si Ioniţă Caloian) infiinteaza regatul asăneştilor, o formatiune statala puternica ce reprezinta un pericol pentru imperiul bizantin.
Asăneştii astia erau asa mai valahi.
La Veliko Tarnovo poate fi vizitata curtea lor domneasca.

Alt fapt interesant e ca fiica lui Jivkov, fostul presedinte al Bulgariei, e cea care isi influenteaza tatal sa aloce fonduri pentru un studiu genetic serios.
Programul american de a stabili o harta genetica s-a inspirat din studiile facute de bulgari. O recunosc deschis americanii insisi.

Ceea ce ma intriga pe mine e numarul fantastic de mare de tezaure descoperite in Bulgaria si Macedonia. Piese grele din aur, cupe, masti mortuare ... dar si schelete bine conservate.
La ora actuala se vorbeste chiar de o Vale a regilor traci, denumire inspirata de Valea Regilor din Egiptul antic.
Recent am vazut doua documentare, unul facut de BBC altul o coproductie facuta de o televiziune din Elvetia cu mai multe alte televiziuni (Bulgaria, Italia, Grecia, Serbia, Turcia...). Mi-a dat foarte mult de gindit.<BR><BR>Daca ai timp citeste acest articol scris de un ne-bulgar
http://www.helium.com/items/668269-the-old...aeological-find

Din ce in ce mai multi istorici, nu numai Maria Gimbutas, afirma ca toate dovezile indica faptul ca leaganul civilizatiei europene este situat pe cursul inferior al Dunarii, deci pe ambele maluri ale Dunarii, de la Portile de Fier si pina la gurile de varsare in Marea Neagra. Acest teritoriu al vechii civilizatii europene se regaseste pe teritoriile de azi ale Serbiei, Romaniei si Bulgariei.

Ca tot veni vorba de Varna ... in satele din apropiere am vazut o groaza de lume cu trasaturi evident mongoloide. Sotul meu a ramas de-a dreptul socat in restaurantul in care am intrat sa mincam. Fetele care serveau acolo ziceai ca ar fi venit din Mongolia sau China ...

Acest topic a fost editat de exergy33: 15 Jun 2009, 08:47 AM

Nu văd de ce să fii şocată. În Dobrogea tătarii au fost întotdeauna majoritari (pînă pe la finele secolului XIX parcă). Deci trăsăturile mongoloide sînt absolut fireşti în zonă.

P.S. Comentariul meu e neavenit ... am citit VaMa în loc de VaRNa ...

Acest topic a fost editat de Rovaniemi: 15 Jun 2009, 10:46 AM

Rovaniemi, nu-ti fa probleme.
Mie mi se intimpla frecvent sa citesc de-andoaselea.

Revin cu un pasaj dintr-un interviu publicat aici:
http://www.contrafort.md/2007/156/1323.html



Toate sublinierile din text imi apartin.



Acest topic a fost editat de exergy33: 15 Jun 2009, 12:13 PM

O explicatie ar pute fi epidemia de ciuma care a lovit Tara Romaneasca in timpul domniei lui Mircea Cel Batran, depopularea tarii l-a obligat pe domnitor sa aduca in sudul tarii, bulgarii ortodocsi, ce fugeau din calea turcilor.

Bulgarii care s-au stabilit initial in sudul Dunarii erau la origine turanici, au migrat dintr-o zona geografica ce se gasea undeva intre Don si Volga, odata crestinati, calugarii ortodocsi Kiril si Metodiu le-au creat un alfabet, folosit si in Tarile Romane. Nu stiu daca bulgari de azi au acelaasi trunchi genetic cu romanii, dar poate ca datorita apropierii existente intre casele boieresti ce aveau domenii de-o parte si de alta a Dunarii este posibil ca populatia sa se fi amestecat, nu m-ar mira sa fie la fel si cu sarbii.

Nu erau "mai asa" erau chiar valahi, sa mai numeau si vlahi chervanari deoarece faceau negot intre Bizant si statele baltice. Ce-a ma rasunatoare actiune militara a valahilor a fost un atac asupra bizntinilor in care si-a pierdut viata imparatul.

Exista mai multe ipoteze in ceea ce ii privestii pe fratii Asan,inclusiv ipoteza originii cumane, insa originea vlaha/valaha e cea acceptata in mod oficial.


http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinastia_As%C4%83ne%C5%9Ftilor

Cred ca cele mai bune izvoare sunt cele bizantine cat si cele otomane, unde se specifica clar originea valaha a celor care puneau cele mai mari probleme imperiului la Dunare.

Noi rom^nii avem combinatia: E 25-35%, I central-rasaritean ~ 30-35%, R1a ~10-15 % si R1b ~5-10 %.
ADICA in mare putem spune ca avem sange majoritar TRACIC-cu nucleul in Kosovo-Banat si sange majoritar I-central-rasaritean TRACIC-neolitic ?!, restul sunt urme slavo-iranico-turanice R1a si urme celto-germanice R1b (mai avem si putin J-dravidiano-arabic). - Situatia priveste tot teritoriul Rom^niei si rep. Moldova. (daca luam zone restranse din Rom^nia vom gasi ca predominant oricare dintre cele 5).

Asadar avem o amprenta unica si doar prin faptul ca I-ul si R1a / R1b este mai mult in Rom^nia decat in Bulgaria.

Si eu as fi la fel de circumspect, deoarece pana la TATARI ori ceva popoare inrudite care vin putin inainte de acestia (pecenegi, uzi, cumani?) nici macar turanicii huni, avari, bolgari, nu erau de rasa galbena decat unele triburi !

Nu este deloc neavenit, Vama si Varna faceau parte din Imperiul Otoman, Dobrogea a fost provincie otomana, dar regiunea aceasta nu se oprea la Vama ci continua spre sud spre Nisipurile de Aur, Balcic pana dincolo de Varna. Tocmai de aceea unii bulgari ne considera ca toata Dobrogea este a lor. Cand am vizitat Albena, am avut o surpriza, in mijlocul statiunii cel mai mare hotel se numeste Dobrogea, scris cu carectere kirilice.

O mica anecdota pe lânga: Taica-meu a fost cântaret in corul Filarmonicii din Timisoara, si au fost plecati odata in Bulgaria, la Varna.
Se plimba prin oras cu un coleg, deodata se opreste ala si intreaba: "Ma Mihai, ce naiba e aia "pectopaht?" - "Poftim?" - "Pai uite acolo pe cladirea aia, pectopaht."
Se uita taica-meu si începe sa râda - "PECTOPAHT" (RESTORANT)

Nu chiar, din 2 motive:

1. Dobrogea se cam oprește pe la capul Caliacra, și de acolo pînă la Varna mai e.
2. Mai important, dacă te uiți la o hartă cu răspîndirea populației tătărăști în zonă, aria lor de extindere tot p-acolo pe undeva se oprește ...

Asa pot sa-ti spun si eu una din aceiasi serie, asteptam un transport din Grecia, il sun pe grecul meu si-l intreb care este numarul masinii care face transportul el zice numarul complet aiurea, caut eu ce caut si-mi da prin cap sa-l intreb daca masina este romanesaca, grecul zice ca da, atunci am transpus literele transmise si am dat de masina.


De la Albena la Varna sunt vreo 20 km, zona geografica Dobrogea s-o fi terminand la capul Caliacra, dar turcii cred ca nu tineau cont de asta. Totusi daca te uiti pe harta Balcicul este dupa Capul Caliacra, deci eu consider ca Dobrogea se intinde pana la Varna, dar am sa caut exact delimitarea frontierei romano-bulgare dinainte de cedarea Cadrilaterului, oricum nu corespunde cu Dobrogea turceasca.

Acest topic a fost editat de marduk: 16 Jun 2009, 01:13 PM

Mda, în sfîrşit am găsit-o, harta etnică pe care o aveam în minte e asta:

http://www.webdesign-eu.com/shefa/Balkans-ethnic-1861.jpg

N-am idee cît de acurată este, dar arată o "pungă" de tătari în apropiere de Varna

P.S. Iar am chiorît, verzuliul d-acolo îi reprezintă pe bulgari ... deci la vremea redactării hărţii, nici ăpomeneală de tătari în zona Varnei

Acest topic a fost editat de Rovaniemi: 16 Jun 2009, 03:47 PM

Harta prezentata de tine nu m-a lamurit pe deplin referitor la discutia despre tatarii din Dobrogea, in schimb mi-a raspuns la o intrebare care ma framanta, gagauzii din sudul Moldovei, pe acesta harta zona aceea apare ca fiind locuita de bulgari ceea ce mie imi spune foarte multe. Ar trebui cautat prin arhive sa vedem daca exista mentiuni referitoare la acceptarea a bulgarilor ortodocsi de catre dominii moldoveni, in aceiasi perioada in care si Mircea facea aceiasi miscare.

Uită-te mai bine, mai ales pe harta detaliată a Deltei. În marea aia verde de bulgari există un mic trapez galben, marcat Guegues. Ăia-s găgăuzii, presupun, la anul 1861. Acuma, înțelege cine ce vrea ... nu știu pe ce baze (recensăminte) au fost trasate ariile respective ...

Ceva ma face sa nu iau in seama aceasta harta, proportia grecilor in imperiul otoman si asta la 1860 adica la peste 400 de ani de la cucerirea Constantinopolelului de catre turci. E ceva care nu are logica, asta in cazul in care harta chiar face referire la distribuirea populatiilor respective in anul 1861.

Chestia cu grecii să nu te mire. Aceștia oricum ocupau toată coastă mării Egee, deci și litoralul Asiei Mici. În plus, tot așa cum între Dobrogea noastră de acum și Cadrilater a existat un schimb de populație, tot așa este înregistrată în arhive și schimbul de populație dintre Grecia și Turcia de după primul război mondial (cred).

Schimbul de populatie intre Grecia si Turcia... se urasc reciproc, nu numai pe Cipru.

Merci, exergy!
O să citesc pe îndelete când am timp...
Cla:
Rovaniemi vrea să spună că după modificarea graniţelor, grecii s-au dus în Grecia şi turcii în Turcia, ca să scape de persecuţii şi probleme. Ce am observat eu e că populaţia românească din Serbia era mult mai răspândită. Nu prea am auzit multe despre etnicii români de acolo... Mai ştiu că la sud de Dunăre trăiau macedonenii, unde sunt?

In sud de Dunare sunt meglenoromanii, aromânii si, in peninsula Istriei, Istroromanii, dar foarte putini, vreo 3-4 sate.
In sud de Macedonia, in Hellas, sunt multi români, carelor s-a interzis sa vorbeasca româneste, pâna si acasa. Politica greaca.

Aromânii sînt prezenți pe harta aia sub numele de Zinzares (adică țînțari cum li se mai zice la noi:) ) E pata aia neagră în marea galbenă de schipetari (albanezi)

P.S. Pe de altă parte, să nu te aștepți să fie puse pe hartă toate minoritățile sau grupurile etnice după numele de azi ... poți să cauți mult și bine meglenoromâni (not found), bosnieci (sînt băgați la denumirea generică de sîrbi), evrei - scrie în legendă că sînt băgați la grămadă cu românii, ceea ce arată de ce Principatlee Unite au un albastru așa de uniform, cu cîteva pungi de ceangăi/secui, cînd se știe că la vremea aia deja începuse migrația evreilor dinspre Polonia și Imperiul Îarist înspre Moldova, în căutarea Pămîntului sfînt.

dar, na, ce pretenții ai, era totuși anul 1861, nu se inventase political corectnessul, americanii pe vremea aia cloceau rezbelul civil.

Acest topic a fost editat de Rovaniemi: 17 Jun 2009, 07:52 AM

Atentie, discutam despre o harta facuta la 1861, cu aproape 63 de ani inaintea WW1. Din cate mi-aduc aminte a existat in timpul WW1 sau dupa doar un schimb major de populatii intre turci si greci.

Ura dintre greci si turci este ura care ne-a prins si pe noi romanii de-a lungul timpului. Din fericire pentru noi turcii i-au lasat pe greci sa conduca Tarile Romane si asa am aflat ca turcii cel putin, isi respecta cuvantul dat.

In Balcani aromanii au construit orase superbe, cel mai renumit fiind Moscopole. In perioada respectiva aromanii erau extrem de bogati, si procedau la fel ca lombarzii, imprumutau cu banii beey, pasalele, printii austrieci si unguri. Nu este de mirare ca atunci cand turcii au hotarat sa-i rada de pe fata pamantului, niciun print occidental nu le-a sarit in ajutor.

Fanariotii?

Dar, pe lânga. Am aflat pe propia piele ca turcii au o sira de spinare dreapta.
Am fost la spital, cei mai buni prieteni ai mei au fost 3 turci,
Cei mai tâmpiti au fost niste rusi din Kazahstan, na fain. Macar stiu de ce sa ma feresc.

Păi și io cu ce m-am contrazis aici?!?

Zona albastră (cu majoritatea grecească) din zona Rumeliei (partea europeană a Turciei), și de-a lungul coastei estice a mării Egee se află bine-mersi pe harta din 1861, corect? Ei bine, tipii au fost repatriați în Grecia Actuală undev a după primul rezbel.

Viceversa, zonele roșii din Grecia continentală (adică turcii) existau bine-mersi pe harta din 1861. Aceștia au fost repatriați în Rumelia imediat după primul război mondial.

Rezultatul o fost o demografie în care nu (prea) există greci în Turcia și nici turci în Grecia.

Ca atare, nu văd ce nu înțelegi aici?!?